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  • #76
    Originally posted by lasvegaspinballhalloffame View Post
    Would have to see and play them side by side.
    And no offense taken Vincent. I just don't get all of this physics jargon and what not about FS's tables, since they play perfectly fine to me. ihearawitch calls it all BS too. He says if you consider yoourself a good PB player you should be able to bust scores out on both company's tables with out a problem. Zen said the same thing on Facebook. They don't get all of the FS hate, and that they will certainly be playing FS's tables too.
    I personally don't hate FarSight and I give them a lot of credit for their efforts. Not many game companies are willing to try to emulate real pinball tables. However, I don't see their games as "the next best thing since sliced bread" like you do.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing their tables. FarSight does many things right, but there are many flaws as well in their PHOF series.

    I've played Fun House and Whirlwind several times at the local arcades. FarSight's versions are pretty close to the real thing in design and animation. However, the game's physics engine is less to be desired.

    Like others have said, the ball is floaty. This is also known as the "moon ball effect", which has been a known problem for most video pinball games since the 80s. Plain and simple, the ball doesn't look like it's rolling. Making it hard for us to predict the ball's projection. Something I can do easily on the real machines. Another issue I have is the ricocheting. For example, when the ball ricochets off the slingshots, the ball will magically shoot right back to the top of the playfield. This very annoying, since a real sling shot can't do that. They are only designed to change the projection of the ball heading to the flippers.

    There's also some collision detection issues in the game. It's very hard to do back shots without hitting the slingshots. For example, I want to hit a hole on the left side of the table with the left flipper. However, for some reason the ball always hits the bottom of the slingshot instead. In the real machines, that never happens.

    The biggest nagging issue of them all for me is the lack of customization in PHoF. Take a look at Zen's tables. Each one can be customized in every way you can think of in the operator's menu, including the table's incline. The incline can affect the ball's speed and momentum quite a bit. If this was included in PHoF, then I would probably be a little more forgiving on the physics engine, since I could counterbalance a few of my nagging issues with it. Oh and lets not forget about the forced controller layout. It would be nice if I had some controller options, other than the flipper buttons. I really don't like launching the ball with the right analog stick.

    Note: I own the PS3 version of William's PHoF.
    Last edited by shogun00; 11-03-2011, 05:03 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by shogun00 View Post
      I personally don't hate FarSight and I give them a lot of credit for their efforts. Not many game companies are willing to try to emulate real pinball tables. However, I don't see their games as "the next best thing since sliced bread" like you do.

      Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing their tables. FarSight does many things right, but there are many flaws as well in their PHOF series.

      I've played Fun House and Whirlwind several times at the local arcades. FarSight's versions are pretty close to the real thing in design and animation. However, the game's physics engine is less to be desired.

      Like others have said, the ball is floaty. This is also known as the "moon ball effect", which has been a known problem for most video pinball games since the 80s. Plain and simple, the ball doesn't look like it's rolling. Making it hard for us to predict the ball's projection. Something I can do easily on the real machines. Another issue I have is the ricocheting. For example, when the ball ricochets off the slingshots, the ball will magically shoot right back to the top of the playfield. This very annoying, since a real sling shot can't do that. They are only designed to change the projection of the ball heading to the flippers.

      There's also some collision detection issues in the game. It's very hard to do back shots without hitting the slingshots. For example, I want to hit a hole on the left side of the table with the left flipper. However, for some reason the ball always hits the bottom of the slingshot instead. In the real machines, that never happens.

      The biggest nagging issue of them all for me is the lack of customization in PHoF. Take a look at Zen's tables. Each one can be customized in every way you can think of in the operator's menu, including the table's incline. The incline can affect the ball's speed and momentum quite a bit. If this was included in PHoF, then I would probably be a little more forgiving on the physics engine, since I could counterbalance a few of my nagging issues with it. Oh and lets not forget about the forced controller layout. It would be nice if I had some controller options, other than the flipper buttons. I really don't like launching the ball with the right analog stick.

      Note: I own the PS3 version of William's PHoF.
      I think if more people could play the FS tables in real life like I can, we would probably not see quite as many negative comments about them. Also, you should NOT be able to customize their tables. You can't walk into an arcade and set machines to any setting you want despite what some may think. Also, it's been almost three years since they put out the William's disc; four or five on the Gotlieb disc. So I'm sure after all of that time they will have tweaked and updated their physics and their floating ball thing that everyone seems to be stuck on. Obviously in the Pinball world nowadays you just sorta take what you can get. I'm blessed that Vegas happens to have one of the biggest pinball arcades in the world, so that I can go and see how good FarSight does on a lot of the tables they are gonna put out. The museum's FunhHouse has seen better days. You play the FunHouse on William's disc, see how fun it is, and get all amped up to play it in real life. But since the museum's FunHouse isn't in mint condition, you're like, damn, FarSight's table is actually better than the real thing,lol. Same goes for Tales of the Arabian Nights. Actually, same goes for Pinbot too,lol.
      http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ The City Is My Church

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      • #78
        I've played PHOF on Wii and XBOX 360.

        At best I would describe the ball/table physics like playing on a brand new table where all the rubber is new on the bumpers/rails, all the motorized parts (bumpers/slingbacks/flippers) work perfectly, and the playfield is clean.

        While I don't mind playing on a table that feels brand new (something that I've only experienced a few times with a real life table in an arcade), I'd rather play on a table that has been broken in. A broken-in table is always more forgiving to play.

        The only downside with an old real life table is a dirty table with worn out paths, weak bumpers, dead flippers, and greedy arcade attendants who set the playfield level t0o steep.

        On the other hand I could describe the ball physics on PHOF like playing on a planet with less gravity than Earth (moon ball). Not only does it not feel like I'm playing something real, it makes it hard to predict the ball movement with any accuracy.

        I've played most of the tables in the US version of PHOF in real life, and the only one that was close was Pinbot. All of the other tables felt off, so much so that I only played them to complete the challenges and achievements. I even sold my Wii game after completing all the challenges.

        If Farsight could at least offer an option to change the table playfield angle, then I might consider trying them again. In the meantime, I'm more than happy with the current product from ZEN.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
          The only downside with an old real life table is a dirty table with worn out paths, weak bumpers, dead flippers, and greedy arcade attendants who set the playfield level t0o steep.
          You forgot the large outlanes and broken rubbers!
          PINBALL4EVER!!!!

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          • #80
            Originally posted by lasvegaspinballhalloffame View Post
            Also, you should NOT be able to customize their tables. You can't walk into an arcade and set machines to any setting you want despite what some may think.
            No, but as has already been pointed out to you, the machine settings can be changed by the operator.

            Good luck changing the moonball physics of MM in PHOF though.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Oskari14 View Post
              You forgot the large outlanes and broken rubbers!
              Zen tables need more cigarette burns!

              Actually, a "route" or "sited pin" mode could be interesting. Half the bulbs would be randomly burned out, initials could be scratched on the cabinet, the mylar would be peeling up and the flippers could barely make the ramp shots.

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              • #82
                Nothing ruins a table more than dead flippers. I want to fling the ball up there damn it!

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                • #83
                  Custom Controller Board

                  Can't remember if this was ever linked:

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT_jNCvf_xc

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by wednesday View Post
                    Nothing ruins a table more than dead flippers. I want to fling the ball up there damn it!
                    Another bogus statement. None of the William's tables have dead flippers.
                    http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ The City Is My Church

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by lasvegaspinballhalloffame View Post
                      Another bogus statement. None of the William's tables have dead flippers.
                      wednesday is referring to real life tables that exhibit flipper failure. i.e. the coils wear out, or are replaced incorrectly. It's very common.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Womble View Post
                        wednesday is referring to real life tables that exhibit flipper failure. i.e. the coils wear out, or are replaced incorrectly. It's very common.
                        Ok okay. Yeah that does suck. Luckily Tim Arnold is like a nazi about keeping his machines clean and working properly.
                        http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ The City Is My Church

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                        • #87
                          Y

                          Ok, I checked out the short videos and im definitely interested. the ball movement does appear to be off though in the short clips, Hopefully this gets ironed out.
                          The thing that got me into pbfx2 is how great it FELT to play. It feels like I am hitting a metal ball. And with the subtle rumble effects it can be quite convincing. It feels good. Its probaly not an easy thing to pull off.
                          Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of pinball!

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by lasvegaspinballhalloffame View Post
                            Ok okay. Yeah that does suck. Luckily Tim Arnold is like a nazi about keeping his machines clean and working properly.
                            Let him know that the rollover on the rocket launch on twilight zone is stiff. It keeps the ball from going all the way into the saucer and results in a weak launch - often straight down the middle.

                            Or at least, that was the case when I went a week and a half ago.

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                            • #89
                              Why was Solitude playing Twilight Zone - research?

                              /likes starting rumours

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                              • #90
                                Twilight Zone is awesome no doubt. I remember seeing this for the first time -

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyI0c4sRN_w
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