Distance between Flippers

[cwata]

I don't know why people complain about games so much, but still play them. Just a reminder. Pinball FX 2 is a video game not real pinball. It is like over analyzing the gun physics in a FPS. It's all just a bunch of math formulas and fancy graphics.

Jeffy a tourney is coming up. If it is sooooo easy try to get in the top 10. How many top 100 scores do you have?

[jeffy777]

I don't know why people complain about games so much, but still play them. Just a reminder. Pinball FX 2 is a video game not real pinball. It is like over analyzing the gun physics in a FPS. It's all just a bunch of math formulas and fancy graphics.

Jeffy a tourney is coming up. If it is sooooo easy try to get in the top 10. How many top 100 scores do you have?

lol, I'm not saying it's "sooooo easy"; just that's it's easier than it should be for people that are used to playing pinball....and if you actually read the thread, I said multiple times that I haven't gotten into this game all much, so I don't have the achievements, high scores, etc...

@Womble, it is kind of sad that we've come to a day when every genre of video games has to be watered down....but I understand that Zen has to do that too because that's what gamers have unfortunately come to expect. I just wish they would've done that in a different way instead of changing the dimensions of pinball that regular players are used to. If they were worried about the rounds being too short, then why not increase the ball saver timers instead? I like how the old Pro Pinball games had a Novice and Regular difficulty choice so that you could make the game easier if you wanted (longer ball saves, longer mission timers, etc)....just seems like the better solution to me, instead of narrowing the flipper gap and dampening the core gameplay that non-newbies are used to.

All I'm saying is that it would be nice to at least have the option of a non-watered down version, because I'm the type of guy that would rather play NBA 2K11 instead of NBA Jam ....but apparently Zen wants to be the NBA Jam of pinball.....at least they're making pinball tables, so I'm thankful for that and will still enjoy them for a fun, casual game now and then....but I gotta fill my simulation fix too, which is why I made this thread. It'd be great if they'd also want to be the NBA 2K11 of pinball and cover both crowds, because there is certainly a market for both

[the1rishway]

I've been a competitive gamer for about a decade, whether it's traveling to Street Fighter tournaments or playing real pinball. I can say this, comparing PBFx2 to real pinball is like comparing Tekken to MMA. Appreciate it for what it is and try to keep in mind that it, like other people have said before me, is a video game that doesn't abide by real-world logistics for a reason. It would be nice to see some realism added to it, I agree, but I'm thrilled with what I get out of it. More than flipper distance, my problem with the game is the flipper mechanics but that's a story for a different thread and a complaint I feel isn't truly worth lodging due to my aforementioned statement (despite having done just that. )

[jeffy777]

I've been a competitive gamer for about a decade, whether it's traveling to Street Fighter tournaments or playing real pinball. I can say this, comparing PBFx2 to real pinball is like comparing Tekken to MMA. Appreciate it for what it is and try to keep in mind that it, like other people have said before me, is a video game that doesn't abide by real-world logistics for a reason. It would be nice to see some realism added to it, I agree, but I'm thrilled with what I get out of it. More than flipper distance, my problem with the game is the flipper mechanics but that's a story for a different thread and a complaint I feel isn't truly worth lodging due to my aforementioned statement (despite having done just that. )

Well said. I like the Tekken/MMA analogy.

[Womble]

@Womble, it is kind of sad that we've come to a day when every genre of video games has to be watered down....)

See, I think the problem here is that we have different expectations.

If Zen had acquired the licence to say, Twilight Zone, and then "watered it down" (by adding extra balls, reducing the flipper gap, de-powering the slingshots, etc.) then it'd be a valid complaint. I'd be right there with you, complaining about messing about with a classic.

But, that's not what has happened here. Zen haven't taken an existing coin-op game and nerfed it. Instead, they're targeting an entirely different audience: PSN and XBLA gamers. It's likely that many of these gamers have never played a real-life pinball machine before. Some may never have seen one. Not only do they not know how to "play properly", but they don't even realise there are rules and goals.

The coin-op industry is ruthless. Coin churn is the order of the day. The operator wants a punter to have a few minutes of fun, and then they want them either off the machine, or inserting more coins.

Zen's goal is completely different: they want to keep people playing, for as long as possible.

Having said that, I agree that some of the tables have become too easy, and have pandered a little too much to newbies. We need a few more harder games, like Earth Defense.

[SBVIPER]

Hey Jeff, A mild suggestion if I may?

Instead of hoping to persuade Zen to design tables based on an individuals desires, simply wait and acquire "The Pinball Arcade" when FarSight Releases at the end of March.

They have the licensing rights to Bally, Gottlieb, Stern, and Williams so you'll have real table layouts coming.

AND...I know for a fact that they will be doing some older Electro/Mechanical tables from the 70's which did have wider fipper layout.

This way you have the best of both worlds like we all will.

Cheers!

[MrPanic]

This makes the game more about skill and less about luck, exactly what should be expected from a competitive game. Real tables have wider gaps because they're usually used to make money and that won't happen if someone can play 5 hours straight on one buck. Games are made for skill, things like luck shouldn't be that big of an influence otherwise it kills the competitive side. The priority should be on making a fun and competitive game instead of making realistic tables, that probably the reason why Pinball FX is actually successful on xbla. Games really don't have much replayability if the result is based on luck, the only reason that they should be that wide is if it was realistic, but Pinball FX isn't in the first place so there really no reason to put something annoying and luck-based like that in anyway. Pinball FX is skill based, let them make the game harder with things that don't involve luck.

[Solitude]

1. Look at any of the Top 100 machines of all time and 99% of them have that wide of a gap.

http://pinside.com/pinball/top-100

2. Regardless of what the decision was based on, having the flippers like that has been the way pinball has been played for decades and people have loved pinball all along, so I just don't see why it needs to be made easier after all these years.

3. Sorry to be blunt, but boohoo, lol. Learn the game the way it was meant to be played. It would be like lowering the basketball hoop or shortening the base paths in baseball so that more people can score. Yeah it would be more fun for people starting out, but too easy for those who have already played the game way it was meant to be played....and just like those real sports, when you mess with a tried and true formula, you water down the game.....and even the newbies will get bored with the lesser challenge after awhile.

The one thing that was constant about pinball was that it was always changing. People had the same complaints about...flippers being added to the game. Solid state machines. Pinball 2000's video monitor. Extra flippers beyond the first two. Widebody format.

Game design follows business model. We don't say that all video games should be shallow, repetitive quarter-munchers just because that's what arcade games were.

Our tables may have less SDTM and longer ball saves, but mode activation and completion is more challenging than in a regular pinball table. We place more of the emphasis on skill rather than on luck, because we don't need to make people reach into their pockets for another quarter every few minutes to stay in business. (We do need to shorten total game times for the elite players, though.)

We're not trying to recreate the exact experience that children of the 70s and 80s had in the arcade. There are other games that do that. We're trying to evolve pinball as it has always evolved.

(By the way, check out George Gomez in Tilt: the Battle to Save Pinball talking about gaps between flippers, and how for the table being discussed he designed it to have a gap width of a ball + 1/8".)

[Cloda]

Our tables may have less SDTM and longer ball saves, but mode activation and completion is more challenging than in a regular pinball table. We place more of the emphasis on skill rather than on luck, because we don't need to make people reach into their pockets for another quarter every few minutes to stay in business. (We do need to shorten total game times for the elite players, though.)

We're not trying to recreate the exact experience hat children of the 70s and 80s had in the arcade. There are other games that do that. We're trying to evolve pinball as it has always evolved.

Interesting discussion... thanks. I'm OK with Zen's flipper gap on most occasions you can save a ball with a clever nudge and/or slap save - basically skills acquired and refined but never perfected.

In general for me long games on Zen tables come from a few other aspects rather than just the with of the gap in the middle... these include ease of activation of kickbacks, permanent "kickbacks" (e.g. claw save), acquiring extra balls, the amount of extra balls available, low risk spammable missions and recently not having to complete missions to reach Wizard mode (Sorcerer's Lair and Ghost Rider).

I really like the X-men table because even though it is possible to have long 3 hours plus game most games for me is more an hour or so. The reason for that is mostly that you really have to work on activating the kickbacks and as soon as you don't focus on that you easily lose balls.

The physics on the table also feels a little bit more bouncy so e.g. letting the ball bounce on one flipper over to the other one often gets me in trouble because I miss judge how far the ball is going to bounce so I lose more balls down the middle because of this. Even though it can be frustrating, it really lifts the challenge for me.

Something that has been raised a couple of times before, mostly by players with a lot of real life pinball experience is that the path of the ball is just too predictable on FX 2... what it comes down to is that you can shoot a orbit on a table such as Ms. Splosion Man know for a fact that when it gets kicked back around that you will be able to let it bounce on the right flipper and catch it on the left without much thought or skill involved. The more you play a table, the more you learn other predictable "ball paths" such as that.

I believe that if Zen plays around with the above mentioned aspects they will be able to build more inherent risk into a table and make it less predictable resulting in shorter game time. In the end you will always need a spread of tables that cater for all your players and that is why I like a 4 pack release rather than one table at a time because you can make some of them more challenging.

Personally I have reached the point where on tables such as Ghost Rider and Paranormal I will never go for the higher scores because even though there is lot of skill involved in reaching those mega scores, it is just not the kind of experience or challenge that I like when playing pinball.

[DutchTommy]

Jeffy a tourney is coming up. If it is sooooo easy try to get in the top 10. How many top 100 scores do you have?

say that to me buddy hahaha

i am possibly 1 of the best players in the world at the moment within the realms of ZEN Pin Games

i dominate the Real Pinball World too,. lol who said anything about 3minutes of game time? then watch my video below

http://pinball.org/videos/tournament/papa/papa-14-qualifying-whitewater/

i am like an walking talking encyclopedia in Pinball..
my nick is TommyCyBeRRoy

i wanna add some players

[Womble]

Such modesty.

[Lepruk86]

I guess I can add here...

I am not a pinball elite - I am pretty bad at pinball to be honest; having only completed the wizard modes on the easier tables.

I think Zen have a good variety of tables at the moment; the problem is that the harder ones; people moan about...

See: Blade and Iron-man for example...

So many people moan about IM because of how unfair it is (as some nasty SDTM bounces if you aren't careful)...

And Zen can see what sells; I bet the tables with the higher sales are probably the marginally easier ones.

I think as said above they need to just reduce extra ball numbers more than anything; that seems to be the game breaker. Personally I find tables like Thor around the right difficulty for me.

[lexandro]

Gamers like a challenge, regardless of genre. What they dont like is arbitrary failure in a game, that is to say having a game end from uncontrollable aspects of the title. Like in a shooter game, if your weapon stopped working due to you shooting the wrong person. Or in a strategy game, your actions are ignored because the system says so at that time.

In pinball its due to uncontrollable actions on the table (ie Ironman's drain bounces). Latter tables have tended to not have these kinds of uncontrollable issues which makes then 10x more appealing to the gamer audience.

Basically stated; When player skill has nothing to do with how well they play and for how long it causes problems and gives the appearance of "scripted" or "predetermined" actions.

[SBVIPER]

I guess I can add here...


I think as said above they need to just reduce extra ball numbers more than anything; that seems to be the game breaker. Personally I find tables like Thor around the right difficulty for me.

You can reduce the balls per game and adjust the difficulty on the Operators menu on the newer tables. It just all depends on wether or not you'd like to remain on the Public Leaderboards.

What ZEN could do and it would be cool, if they made a special tournament JUST for the PRO's, with "Stupid Difficulty" written all over it. Call it the Master's Tournament and ZEN would put the playfield on maximum angle with no extra balls etc.. and see how far people can get with limited boons. Hmmm.

Cheers!

[ammonitida]

You can reduce the balls per game and adjust the difficulty on the Operators menu on the newer tables. It just all depends on wether or not you'd like to remain on the Public Leaderboards.

What ZEN could do and it would be cool, if they made a special tournament JUST for the PRO's, with "Stupid Difficulty" written all over it. Call it the Master's Tournament and ZEN would put the playfield on maximum angle with no extra balls etc.. and see how far people can get with limited boons. Hmmm.

Cheers!

The menu options don't increase the difficulty by much. Even one ball can last way too long. On Pasha for instance I lasted over an hour on one ball. I hate when that happens! I want pinball games to last for like 15 minutes at most, like in the arcades. Any longer and the games starts to get VERY BORING! This is pinball, not Skyrim FFS!

One suggestion I made is a time trial mode, similar to the multiplayer options. Someone else suggested a score threshold mode where your rank is based on how fast you reach a certain number of points. Say it's set at 100m. The time it takes you to achieve 100m points will be your score.

Just make the games shorter, please!!!!!