Return of the jedi discussion

[Scubafinch]

Great table deep. I'm constantly amazed at the new features and variations that you guys bring to each new table.

One question though, I get how the R2 D2 ball save is lit, then activated; but the magna-save and counter is a little confusing. I had the counter up to 5, the ball spilled, bounced around and failed to lit all the lights. I activated the magna-save which resulted in a few more bounces and the ball save lit. However the counter dropped from 5 to zero (received a 5M bonus). I thought that the count was how many magna-saves I had left (based on reading the guide). Can you confirm how this works?

(This was on the Vita version, haven't tried on PS3 yet).

[surf1der]

@ScubaFinch: The counter does indeed represent how many magna saves (R2 pullbacks?) you have accumulated by lighting the R2D2 via the left inlane/outlane rollovers. However, when successfully activate all the spot targets, each pullback you have remaining will give you a million points and the counter will reset to 0. You must relight R2D2 via the rollovers to reactivate R2 and collect more pullbacks.

[Cloda]

The right inlane hasn't a direct feed. I didn't want the players have active kickbacks all the time. You know, to get the things a less boring

Ha... funny This is the first of the three new tables that I'm giving a go. It's also actually the first table that I am playing on my laptop and not on my Xbox (which I will only be able to do early in next year some time) and so far it's playing OK. The right outlane is definitely a spanner in the works with regards to my usual "safety first" approach but on the other hand the ball doesn't go that way too often if you control your shooting. Anyway... nice challenge so far getting used to the table and learning how to play on the laptop (nudging is a bit of a chore compared to the Xbox). The laptop is though much better than playing on a tablet for me because nudging is easy enough and you can save.

[Whispa]

I'm not sure I get this table. I'm a bit frustrated by it so there's a bit a rant coming. I really like the general table design and all the missions but I can't help but think that it is not designed well for a video game.

What I mean by that is that there is a golden rule of video game design that games must reward good play and only punish bad play. In the case of the ROTJ table however, without the opportunity to combat the randomness with a ball save, kickbacks etc...it just turns into "well, lets see if I get lucky in this game". I guess whether or not you agree with my argument here depends on whether or not you agree with this golden rule. I for one think it's one of the few unbreakable laws of video games. Any time you punish a player when he hasn't made an error, you defile your game.

I really enjoyed the ESB table (apart from all the bugs) because with enough accuracy, consistency and patience, you could gradually deveop the skill to keep getting better and better. Great design. For ROTJ though, you can practice all you like but the fact is that if the game decides to kill you, tough cookie, you're dead.

I understand that this is pinball we're taking about here so the random factor will always be there....but surely a good table will give the player the tools required to fight that randomness with skill. Am I alone in thinking this?

I've also been playing F1 2013 recently and it makes me consider what that game would be like if, during a race, there was a bomb planted in the car and on any given lap, there was a 60% chance that it might explode. An extreme example perhaps but if this example would clearly be a bad design decision, isn't that also the case on this table?

Sadly I'm not inclined to go back to this table as I'm now a bit tired of just waiting to see whether or not I'll be lucky or not. That's not what video games are about imo. If I wanted that, I'd play a fruit machine or something.

Or am I missing something here? I'm certainly open to persuassion as I'd really like to enjoy this. I don't mind admitting that my frustration comes largely from the fact that I'm unable to score well on the table. For three days I have practiced and got better and better and nailing each ramp and target...but alas....it makes no difference on ROTJ because at any given time there's an x% chance that the game will just arbitrarily kill you, sending the ball rocketing down the right outlane or SDTM in a flash. I don't seem to have any trouble racking up billions on other tables because, as much as pinball can be, they seem 'fair', i.e. I get killed when I screw up and get big scores when I don't....and the more I practice, the less I screw up.

Sad face.

[LeanderL]

I disagree. Good players are good on this table, too. The slingshots are stronger than on other tables and losing the ball in the outlanes may seem random but nudging the table helps. As soon as the ball is bouncing around on the left or right side watch its movement carefully and nudge the table if needed. It is not random then but saving the ball relies on your nudging skills.

[Cloda]

I disagree. Good players are good on this table, too. The slingshots are stronger than on other tables and losing the ball in the outlanes may seem random but nudging the table helps. As soon as the ball is bouncing around on the left or right side watch its movement carefully and nudge the table if needed. It is not random then but saving the ball relies on your nudging skills.

Jip... this is my feelings as well with this table. It requires of you to be a whole lot more strategic with regards to your shot placement etc. and to start recognising what shots to avoid. Try Revenge of the Rob-o-bot for a table a table that punish you for slack play... doing well on that game is definately very rewarding.

[shogun00]

I disagree. Good players are good on this table, too. The slingshots are stronger than on other tables and losing the ball in the outlanes may seem random but nudging the table helps. As soon as the ball is bouncing around on the left or right side watch its movement carefully and nudge the table if needed. It is not random then but saving the ball relies on your nudging skills.

Indeed! Plus, it looks like the rubbers' elasticity has been increased as well. It makes it pretty easy to tell if the ball is going to go in the outlane or not and you can actually divert the ball with strong nudge.

When the ball whizzes to an outlane on the other tables, it's not as easy to divert it compared to this table. I usually rely on the kickback or preform a bang back to save the ball.

In short, you just need to change your strategy on this table compared to the norm.

[shogun00]

I can honestly say I had the most trouble with the last part of the first scene where you have to hit the varitarget about 3 times and then rotate the spinner around 40 times. You have to hit that target a bunch of times fairly quickly because you only get a little extra time when starting the next part where you have to hit the spinner. And hitting the spinner can be tricky. It's best to aim at the center ramp that feeds the upper flipper because the upper flipper can give you another quick crack at hitting the spinner.

I found a nice strategy for hitting the Vari-Target. Once you hit the target, don't press the right flipper button. Let ball roll back to you instead. It will always bounce off the lower right flipper and neatly return back to the left flipper for an easy cradle. I was able to hit the target 3 times in a matter of a few seconds with this trick. This gave me plenty of time to complete the spinner portion.

[Cloda]

Or am I missing something here? I'm certainly open to persuassion as I'd really like to enjoy this. I don't mind admitting that my frustration comes largely from the fact that I'm unable to score well on the table. For three days I have practiced and got better and better and nailing each ramp and target...but alas....it makes no difference on ROTJ because at any given time there's an x% chance that the game will just arbitrarily kill you, sending the ball rocketing down the right outlane or SDTM in a flash. I don't seem to have any trouble racking up billions on other tables because, as much as pinball can be, they seem 'fair', i.e. I get killed when I screw up and get big scores when I don't....and the more I practice, the less I screw up.

Sad face.

Here is something to consider for a somewhat safe strategy. I haven't played much yet but so far it seems that it is quite a safe start to immediately go for the Jabba drop target on the left bottom as the ball always comes down through the in-lane towards activating your R2-D2 kickback/ball saver thingy. You can either bump the ball over to the right flipper or shoot it through the Dark side spinner (which actually comes quite naturally with the ball rolling down the left flipper) as the ball usually lands on the left flipper after the spinner and bounce to the right from where you can shoot at the Jabba target again. One of the Jabba rewards is the right kickback which is off course much appreciated and I'm quite sure that you can also use the R2-D2 magna-save to pull the ball to the left even if it comes down the right in-lane and you bump it (maybe somebody can confirm it EDIT: Well, maybe not). More advanced skill which I get right maybe once out of 20 is when the ball rolls down the left flipper shoot it really late and the ball will go through the right in-lane from the bottom... a bit too risky though for my liking and take too much effort. Anyway, I just do the Jaba thing for the first couple of minutes of each game and off course as soon as I use the R2-D2 save. Lets see, maybe after a couple of more plays I will not look at doing this at all.

Just out of interest... the spinner sounds so familiar to me and I new I have heard it in a pinball game before but I could not think which Zen table it could be. Eventually it dawned on me that it is very similar to the spinner sound on the Pro-Pinball Fantastic Journey table.

[surf1der]

More advanced skill which I get right maybe once out of 20 is when the ball rolls down the left flipper shoot it really late and the ball will go through the right in-lane from the bottom... a bit too risky though for my liking and take too much effort.

Ah, the alley pass. This would be a good table to practice the alley pass since the right habitrail feeds the inlane below the rollover. You really have to have balls of steel to pull it off. Shoot too early and it will hit the bottom of the sling for a likely STDM drain.

[OriginalEther]

Two questions:

1. Exactly how does the Left kickback work when activated? As in, is it completely random as far as R2D2 shooting the targets to make the ball save, or is it something you can control?

2. Is the Sarlaac Pit this table's version of the Sabre Saver, and how is it activated/lit up?
(ok, I guess that's 3 questions)



As for difficulty, the one thing I can say is that you have to rely a lot on trusting the dead bounce to control the ball, or else you run into slingshot hell.
Good example of this is shooting the mission hole. Had an occasion where it dropped, I tried to catch it with the left flipper, only for it to bounce up, BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM into the left outlane. WTF? I've learned to let it bounce to the right flipper.

I'm inclined to say you mainly want to go for the multiballs on this table. Worth noting that the base EOB for each one is 1 million points, so activate a few and raise that multiplier and you're looking at a whole lot of points. Easier said than done, of course.

[Spirit X]

Two questions:

1. Exactly how does the Left kickback work when activated? As in, is it completely random as far as R2D2 shooting the targets to make the ball save, or is it something you can control?

2. Is the Sarlaac Pit this table's version of the Sabre Saver, and how is it activated/lit up?
(ok, I guess that's 3 questions)

The R2 kickback is random, hence why you get the pullbacks I guess. At a push I suppose you could try a nudge or two to help. Would be real hard to judge though.

The one thing I really wish is that if you manage to pull off the bangback after activating the save with R2, that save should then be permanent, as a prize for pulling it off. Unfortunately though, it only lasts a few seconds. So if you ever activate the R2 save, there's no reason to do anything other than just let it drain.

Deep answered your second question above. The Sarlacc Pit Bonus is awarded after the ball drains. There is no ball save on the table afaik.

[Scubafinch]

@ScubaFinch: The counter does indeed represent how many magna saves (R2 pullbacks?) you have accumulated by lighting the R2D2 via the left inlane/outlane rollovers. However, when successfully activate all the spot targets, each pullback you have remaining will give you a million points and the counter will reset to 0. You must relight R2D2 via the rollovers to reactivate R2 and collect more pullbacks.

Thanks. After a couple more plays, that seemed to be the way things work. It's a really novel ball save!

[OriginalEther]

Thanks Spirit.
Saw deep's answer above on second look.

[DEMON]

The sarlacc pit is one of the ballout bonuses and you can raise it completing various modes.

The right inlane hasn't a direct feed. I didn't want the players have active kickbacks all the time. You know, to get the things a less boring

So the only way to activate the right kickback is getting very lucky?