where's ZP2 PS Vita!!??

[dmen1974]

the ZP2 update for PS3 and PS Vita is long so long overdue that it's ridiculous. how long has it been now like two or three months since the first announcement? I dont believe the process is that complicated either, i base my opinion on the recent activity of a PS3/PS Vita pinball competitor, whose company name i won't mention. there process has been much shorter and I'm very satisfied with there product even though there tables are based from an older era of pinball games, the attention to detail is obvious. Today is July 30th, 2012, tomorrow is the last day of the month when ZP2 is supposed to be released to the PS3 and PS Vita community. If it dosen't, I have only one request for the Zen reps, please stop making false ZP2 announcement dates, thank you

[snakeman07]

the ZP2 update for PS3 and PS Vita is long so long overdue that it's ridiculous. how long has it been now like two or three months since the first announcement? I dont believe the process is that complicated either, i base my opinion on the recent activity of a PS3/PS Vita pinball competitor, whose company name i won't mention. there process has been much shorter and I'm very satisfied with there product even though there tables are based from an older era of pinball games, the attention to detail is obvious. Today is July 30th, 2012, tomorrow is the last day of the month when ZP2 is supposed to be released to the PS3 and PS Vita community. If it dosen't, I have only one request for the Zen reps, please stop making false ZP2 announcement dates, thank you

1: It's in certification. It's all on Sony's hands right now, there is nothing that can be done.
2: Recreating existing pinball tables is different than making tables from scratch. The process that Farsight uses is easy compared to Zen. They have an existing engine the runs all the tables. All they have to do is recreate graphics, tweak physics,etc...
3:Tomorrow is not the last day that ZP2 is supposed to be released. Maybe if you would read some previous threads, you'd find out a bit more about all of this. (Hopefully it will drop sometime in mid/late August. I don't have hopes for early August)
4:We are all bummed by the delay of this game, but we've grown to live with it. Besides, it's going to be less buggy than TPA with all this delay

[shogun00]

2: Recreating existing pinball tables is different than making tables from scratch. The process that Farsight uses is easy compared to Zen. They have an existing engine the runs all the tables. All they have to do is recreate graphics, tweak physics,etc...

Indeed! All Farsight has to do is recreate the existing tables in their already made emulator. Something that can be done in a matter of weeks.

The biggest issue with Zen Pinball 2 is the transfer tool. It's something that no other PSN game has ever done before. They are trying to create a tool that will be able to recognize your ZP1 and MP table purchases on the PS3 and transfer them to Zen Pinball 2 on both the PS3 and Vita (two different versions). I can imagine both Zen and Sony are probably experiencing their fair share of set backs from it.

[Crazy Bastard]

Recreating existing pinball tables is different than making tables from scratch. The process that Farsight uses is easy compared to Zen. They have an existing engine the runs all the tables. All they have to do is recreate graphics, tweak physics,etc...

All Farsight has to do is recreate the existing tables in their already made emulator. Something that can be done in a matter of weeks.

Bwahahaha... Neither one of you guys knows what you're talking about. The fellas at FarSight just facepalmed and laughed. Of course they're not going to tell you how every little thing is done in their "Making Of" videos on YouTube. Now I'm not going to claim I know the exact process Zen uses, but it would SEEM that all that's required to make a new table is wipe the artwork clean, apply the new artwork, and move the ramps and switches around a little bit. Adjust a little thing here and there to make it seem different, but really, all the tables come off the same. And done. There's your new table. Physics already in place. As if there's not an engine Zen uses for their physics. Of course there is. Made from scratch? What are you talking about? And both FarSight and Zen heavily recycle their sound effects across ALL tables... where's the creativity there?

What's really funny about the physics discussion is that the physics actually do vary from table to table on The Pinball Arcade. (TOTAN is quite jumpy/bouncy, Ripley's is a little more stiff, ToM is in between both of them, Circus Voltaire is MUCH slower than the other table it was packaged with - Funhouse, and Medieval Madness is damn near pinball perfection.) They're not all the same, whereas with Zen, the physics are exactly the same within certain packs of tables. The first 4 ZP tables had common physics, the next 4 DLC had different physics from the original 4, but shared physics among each other, Marvel's original 4 was better than that, then the V&V pack had even more advanced physics, and then the most recent pack (which in my opinion, has taken a step BACK in the physics department from the outstanding V&V pack) has it's own physics. Zen APPEARS to adjust the physics engine for every new set of tables they release and use it for the all tables that are released during that time frame until the physics engine is revamped once again...

In my opinion, the V&V pack - Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, X-Men, and Thor - was the pinnacle of Zen's work... I hope they get back to that level, because the Avengers pack was SLIGHTLY less impressive. It made me worry that they might be losing their touch...

But Zen still can't do bumpers right... every single Zen table has WEAK bumpers (another thing that appears recycled). Haven't you ever played a real pinball machine? Why are Zen's bumpers always so... limp? Like a saggy, tired old muscle... it tries, but it just doesn't have that force...

The overall performance of the ball physics on The Pinball Arcade are definitely closer to a real pinball machine than Zen's games. Zen is close though, and the V&V pack was the closest, but they are definitely behind FarSight when it comes to physics. Now, I'm not dissing Zen at all. I love their games as far as fantasy-type pinball is concerned, I'm glad they're doing what they're doing, and I've purchased every single PS3 Zen table so far (all 26 of them) all at full price and I intend to buy all future tables. But people should really stop claiming that it's just like a real pinball machine, because it's not.

[tenorhero]

Well I don't want to get involved in a FS vs Zen debate on ball physics. Both have their +'s and -'s. I prefer Zen's physics though. There are a few tables that TPA do well I think and that is Funhouse, Bride and maybe Black Hole. only say black hole is because I recall playing the real machine and the ball did feel like they were slow just like TPA rendition. The other tables are way too bouncy/floaty.

MM near perfection? Hmmm I don't ever recall playing the real machine where the ball comes out of the moat or left orbit and you hold the flipper and it bounces high and floats towards the left out-lanes. That's my biggest complaint on the table and the flipper seem weak/limp. Tough the shoot at targets on the sides.

I'm not sure why you say that the balls act the same in AC for Marvel. I felt the ball physics are slower in Infinity Gauntlet, Much faster in Fear Itself, Heavy in Avengers and on par in WWH. They are different IMO.

Anyway I recall a thread over at the TPA forum. there was this response

I own 14 pinball machines and play real pinball every single day. I own many of the games that are re-created on TPA, so I have a direct comparison to evaluate the physics of both TPA and Zen. I can say, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Zen has the more realistic physics by far.

TPA's physics are very floaty, and there are tons of things with it that annoy the living crap out of me, like the ball bouncing halfway up the playfield from a raised flipper and the odd moments where a poorly-hit ball will suddenly correct course and accelerate up a ramp (this is especially bad on TPA's CFTBL). The inability to perform drop catches and live catches in TPA is maddening, since they are critical for control in real-life pinball. Cradle separations don't work, post transfers are too difficult, and alley passes are too easy. The flippers seem to have no elasticity and the ball seems to have no spin in TPA. That means that you can forget about controlling the ball, and are relegated to a run-and-gun style of play. That's fine for games like Black Hole and Medieval Madness, but it simply kills the gameplay on games like TOTAN and RBION, which require more control and stop-and-go play.

Zen, on the other hand, has much more realistic physics. You can drop catch, you can live catch, you can cradle separate, you can flick pass, post transfer. Basically, if you can do it in real life, you can do it in Zen. Case in point is the kickout scoops. Take, for instance, Epic Quest in Zen. It fires the ball hard at the flipper, but you can control it with a drop catch, and the ball rolls up the flipper just into the inlane and stops. That's more or less how I can control the kickouts on my real TZ, TAF, MM, WW, NGG and FH machines, for instance. What about TPA? Let's look at TOM. The ball fires out of the scoop, and no matter what you do, the ball will bounce crazily off the flipper halfway up the playfield. And, if it gets near a ramp, it will inexplicably roll up and around the ramp!

As for those who say the ball is too heavy and spins too much on Zen, I ask you: have you ever held a real pinball in your hands?? It's a steel ball bearing that is very heavy for its size. It also spins quite a bit during real gameplay, and that spin is critical to controlling the ball and selecting shots. Zen may feel "off" to some of you, because the physics are much more realistic than any simulation that has come before it.

As far as I'm concerned, there's room in town for both games. I wish the flipper spacing on Zen were a little wider, and that the nudging on the iPad were a bit better. It's great to see Farsight re-creating the real pins of yesteryear, and I applaud their attention to detail in terms of playfield modeling and software emulation (although why does every machine in TPA show a credit dot?). If TPA could have Zen's physics, life would be good. As it stands, as someone with unfettered access to the real thing, I much prefer Zen to TPA.

Anyway I enjoy both TPA and ZEN I just prefer Zen because it feels more polished. TPA is Great and the nostalgia of playing the classic tables is fantastic. I just wish that the balls on some of the tables had more weight. They are too floaty.

[s-carnegie]

I find the physics on most of the zen and marvel tables to be different. Thats why they are unique in their own way. Who is claiming its like real pinball. Zen has their own style of pb that no other developer has come even close. The others are ok but what do most enjoy to play and always come back to. ZEN.

[Dinosaur Toy]

I'd like to add here that Farsight HAS had as much trouble with Pinball Arcade as Zen has with ZP2.

People have to remember that Zen is testing the Vita build of all 26 tables. While I don't know their compiling and porting process for scaling the table assets down from their PS3 builds to a Vita build, in comparison Farsight only has to test 2 - 4 tables at a time for Sony and Microsoft certification. If Farsight were trying to test two dozen tables at once, and wrangle them through cert, I would imagine there'd be one epic mess piled up already.

Farsight's had tons of delays on their side on certain platforms. Xbox360 DLC still isn't out at all and they only just got the first patch for the game posted. They've had 1-2 month delays on the Sony side as well. Overall, it seems pretty comparable to delays Zen has experienced with rolling out ZP2 on two platforms at the same time with so many tables to test. (Don't forget every table in ZP2 has updated physics. More testing, I'd assume.)

The real villain, if there is one, is more the dark pit of certification hell at the console platform holders. Many developers have complained in the past that they don't get as many updates as they'd like, or require. That cert takes longer for them than other developers for no good reason. That they get rejected for things that were previously OK, or seem entirely bizarre. Farsight had their DLC tables on Xbox rejected again for the 'bug' that the game would become unresponsive if you stored it on a USB stick *and pulled the stick out during live gameplay*. A 'bug' (more like common sense) that was not an issue in previous certification submissions.

[Rafie]

Well I don't want to get involved in a FS vs Zen debate on ball physics. Both have their +'s and -'s. I prefer Zen's physics though. There are a few tables that TPA do well I think and that is Funhouse, Bride and maybe Black Hole. only say black hole is because I recall playing the real machine and the ball did feel like they were slow just like TPA rendition. The other tables are way too bouncy/floaty.

MM near perfection? Hmmm I don't ever recall playing the real machine where the ball comes out of the moat or left orbit and you hold the flipper and it bounces high and floats towards the left out-lanes. That's my biggest complaint on the table and the flipper seem weak/limp. Tough the shoot at targets on the sides.

I'm not sure why you say that the balls act the same in AC for Marvel. I felt the ball physics are slower in Infinity Gauntlet, Much faster in Fear Itself, Heavy in Avengers and on par in WWH. They are different IMO.

Anyway I recall a thread over at the TPA forum. there was this response


Anyway I enjoy both TPA and ZEN I just prefer Zen because it feels more polished. TPA is Great and the nostalgia of playing the classic tables is fantastic. I just wish that the balls on some of the tables had more weight. They are too floaty.

Well said, Tenorhero! I won't debate or white knight for either respective platforms. I will say that I enjoy both of them very much and I will admit that I learn towards Zen more. Anyway, you are very correct. The certification process on the 360 with TPA is a frickin' MESS for the DLC's. ZP2 is in Sony's hand. Hopefully we'll get it soon. Right now I'm occupied by completing other achievements/trophies on the tables I don't have them on.

Also good explanation, DinosaurToy!

[shogun00]

Bwahahaha... Neither one of you guys knows what you're talking about. The fellas at FarSight just facepalmed and laughed. Of course they're not going to tell you how every little thing is done in their "Making Of" videos on YouTube.

I do know what I'm talking about, since I've been involved with a few Visual Pinball MAME groups in the past. It only took 3 weeks (with a group of 2 people) to emulate an existing table on VPMAME. The difficult part is creating (and updating) the emulation software itself. Making the actual tables and scripting them onto the emulation software doesn't take that much time.

Let me ask you something. How can Farsight release out 2 tables a month, while Zen can take up to 6 months for a table release?

It's because of what I said above. Creating tables from scratch is a much daunting task, then creating something that already has a blue print and a ROM. One member from the VPMAME community created his own pinball table with Visual Pinball and used PinMAME for the effects. It took him over four months to make the table and two months to create the DMD animations and soundtrack. That's not an easy task to do. Creating things from scratch is always going to take more time, than working on a port/remake/emulation.

And now my question to you, why are you dragging physics into this discussion? I wasn't talking about the physics. My only point to my post is the reason why it's taking longer for Zen to roll out Zen Pinball 2 compared to Farsight and their monthly table releases. The biggest factor you got to keep in mind is that Zen isn't releasing a table here, but a whole program (game engine and all) to improve existing tables. Like Dinosaur Toy said, all 26 tables that have released on the PS3 have be to be tested on each version (PS3 and Vita) of the game and it has to pass Sony's certification on the top of it.

[BarbieBobomb]

Bwahahaha... Neither one of you guys knows what you're talking about. The fellas at FarSight just facepalmed and laughed. Of course they're not going to tell you how every little thing is done in their "Making Of" videos on YouTube. Now I'm not going to claim I know the exact process Zen uses, but it would SEEM that all that's required to make a new table is wipe the artwork clean, apply the new artwork, and move the ramps and switches around a little bit. Adjust a little thing here and there to make it seem different, but really, all the tables come off the same. And done. There's your new table. Physics already in place. As if there's not an engine Zen uses for their physics. Of course there is. Made from scratch? What are you talking about? And both FarSight and Zen heavily recycle their sound effects across ALL tables... where's the creativity there?

Ok-- Let me stop you there. Each table is made completely from scratch and takes from 6-9 months to create. There is no template or skin that we use on each table. There is a lot more that goes into each one than you think.

[BarbieBobomb]

the ZP2 update for PS3 and PS Vita is long so long overdue that it's ridiculous. how long has it been now like two or three months since the first announcement? I dont believe the process is that complicated either, i base my opinion on the recent activity of a PS3/PS Vita pinball competitor, whose company name i won't mention. there process has been much shorter and I'm very satisfied with there product even though there tables are based from an older era of pinball games, the attention to detail is obvious. Today is July 30th, 2012, tomorrow is the last day of the month when ZP2 is supposed to be released to the PS3 and PS Vita community. If it dosen't, I have only one request for the Zen reps, please stop making false ZP2 announcement dates, thank you

Hey, sorry to hear that you are disappointed with the timing on ZP2, trust me, we are too! We've had issues getting it through certification, but it's looking good now so we should have our date in the next 1-2 weeks. Delays happen frequently with digital distribution, but in the end it will be worth it because ZP2 will be that much better!

Also--let's not forget this is a TOTALLY FREE upgrade that we are giving you. And we've been working on this for a while now. Please be patient We want you to play this as much as you want to play it, it's going to be awesome! And don't be afraid to talk about Farsight, most of us here at Zen play Pinball Arcade and love it. You can never have too much pinball.

[tenorhero]

Also--let's not forget this is a TOTALLY FREE upgrade that we are giving you.

Maybe that's why sony is taking it's sweet time on this. It's a free update and they aren't making money off such a huge update. In the end they will when other players/customers hear about the easy accessibility. All in all I think most peoples patience is wearing thin.

[BarbieBobomb]

All in all I think most peoples patience is wearing thin.

Agreed! I know mine is totally gone, haha! I just want you guys to play it so badly!

[surf1der]

Maybe that's why sony is taking it's sweet time on this. It's a free update and they aren't making money off such a huge update. In the end they will when other players/customers hear about the easy accessibility. All in all I think most peoples patience is wearing thin.

No. I am sure there is revenue sharing. Sony will get their cut so they have an incentive to make sure the game does well. I have no idea what their cut is. I am sure Sony and the other consoles have very strict NDAs with publishers and developers so you won't hear about it from them.

[Michelasso]

Maybe that's why sony is taking it's sweet time on this. It's a free update and they aren't making money off such a huge update. In the end they will when other players/customers hear about the easy accessibility. All in all I think most peoples patience is wearing thin.

PFX2 has been the most selling game on XBLA. And ZP2 will be on PS Vita as well. I really doubt Sony is ignoring ZP2. Actually I suspect they are getting time to prepare the marketing more than certifying it.