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Still no anti-aliasing in this game! For the love of god!

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  • Still no anti-aliasing in this game! For the love of god!

    WHY! Why must you not put any anti-aliasing in this game. I refuse to buy these extra tables at this point though I sure want to. Not only can you guys not get your game running in 1080p you don't even support anti-aliasing. Meaning this game will just be rebought again on another next-gen console with better graphics and old tables for sale. YOU WILL inevitably rerelease all this stuff I know it. Why would you not? This game would look amazing in 1080p with 4xMSAA. Clean as a real table almost.

    Seriously, how is it that an ancient game like Warhawk can do 4xMSAA and you guys cannot even manage to throw FXAA or some other crappy method in there just to eliminate the jaggies. It's Pinball. This isn't Uncharted 2. Put some freakin' AA in your game or your next game. Your tables are beautiful and then you go and ruin that look with jaggies up the wazoo.

    Rant over--
    Last edited by Khronikos; 09-05-2012, 08:45 AM.

  • #2
    What jaggies, this game looks like 10/10 on my tv anyway. 720, 1080 no dif to me it looks perfect. You likely just need glasses.

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    • #3
      Yeah Zen, no 4xMSAA, what were you thinking...

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      • #4
        This rant seems a little misdirected.

        The current HD consoles were ill-equipped for the "hi def" generation. Microsoft and Sony cheaped out at the beginning. The GPUs in both platforms do not actually have the capability to maintain 720p, let alone 1080p, with features like anti-aliasing, depending on the visual load. There are plenty of games, including those by big developers, with huge budgets, that must sacrifice AA or resolution depending on exactly what they need to do. Very few games on the HD consoles actually render at 1080p.

        Belittling Zen Pinball because "it's just pinball" misrepresents it. Zen Pinball / Pinball FX shoot for nearly photo-realistic tables in terms of modeling, textures, and shaders. It must also run at a locked 60fps for stability and playability. Which it does. The graphical sophistication of Zen's product is actually up there with games that have larger budgets from big studios.

        The Playstation 3 is theoretically more powerful than the Xbox 360, and a handful of games such as Uncharted display this, because they are very specifically designed for the PS3's odd architecture. When your technology is multiplatform however, you can rarely take advantage of that, so most games are restricted to what is possible on the 360.

        The fact that an old game like Warhawk has AA means little. Warhawk's visuals are very crude, and doesn't use a lot of effects and shaders that games later into the generation did. It was also built specifically for one platform, allowing it to be optimized.

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        • #5
          Why the sudden obsession with anti-aliasing in gaming? Pretty sure you just heard the word somewhere, heard that it was good, and now you want it.

          Zen Pinball 2 looks great, no need to obsess over it looking better.

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          • #6
            Except the 360 has a superior GPU that makes anti-aliasing somewhat easier than on PS3. So if anything I suspect the game is locked down to what the PS3 can do WITHOUT using the SPUs (because anything done using the SPUs would be a PITA to port to other systems).

            The end result is the same though, the game has to settle for what can be relatively easily done on all consoles.

            I always felt Zen Pinball didn't play as well or smoothly as Pinball FX, probably due to it being tricky to port over to PS3. Makes me wonder if something like the physics might actually be running on the SPUs now after all.

            I do agree though, I think I would rather sacrifice a little of the flashy arcade effects if that meant I could run the game in 1080p. After all, I was able to run Pro Pinball in 1080p on PC on far worse hardware than the PS3. Then again, that was a purely realistic pinball simulation, far different to what Zen produce.
            Last edited by Alex Atkin UK; 09-05-2012, 07:06 PM.

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            • #7
              "The GPUs in both platforms do not actually have the capability to maintain 720p, let alone 1080p, with features like anti-aliasing, depending on the visual load."

              "Belittling Zen Pinball because "it's just pinball" misrepresents it. Zen Pinball / Pinball FX shoot for nearly photo-realistic tables in terms of modeling, textures, and shaders. It must also run at a locked 60fps for stability and playability. Which it does. The graphical sophistication of Zen's product is actually up there with games that have larger budgets from big studios."

              Let me just say right now you have no idea what you are talking about and have never coded a line in your life. This game is not some epic GPU hogging masterpiece bud.

              Total hogwash. They remaster games like Ico and Okami in 1080p native. Many more are in 1080p on PSN that do more than this game ever will.

              If you think Warhawk was an easy game with no shaders you are seriously mistaken. That is a 32 player game man with 4xMSAA and it came out years ago. Sure, it's dated. Of course it is. But there are 32 players flying around large maps with tanks and soldiers shooting guns and a large draw distance.

              Having less jaggies really helps it along still to this day. Jaggies destroy games. Until devs start making their games proper this argument will not die. One of the reasons I wish they would PORT THIS TO STEAM!

              Sorry, but Pinball isn't stressing the PS3 LOL. They have plenty of room to put in some kind of AA. MLAA and FXAA are almost free on the PS3 so your argument is dead right there.

              There are games like Super Stardust and anything by pixeljunk that run in 1080p native and no jaggies. There are multitudes of games that run at 720p with 10x more than pinball will ever have going and they also have 2xMSAA in the case of Uncharted 2 and usually MLAA or some sort on many others.

              Pinball is not stressing anything on ANY system. And I am tired of looking at these tables with jaggies. It takes me out of my immersion all the time when it should not need to. They can at least afford 2xMSAA there is no doubt in my mind.

              And no I don't need glasses you are the one that obviously needs some glasses. The jaggies are crystal clear. I play on a 42 inch TV and they have been crystal clear and ugly as sin since the first release. Sorry, but it just makes me think there will be another release with the same content just better looking at some point. I say put your game on Steam and be done with it.
              Last edited by Khronikos; 09-08-2012, 09:09 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Khronikos View Post
                "The GPUs in both platforms do not actually have the capability to maintain 720p, let alone 1080p, with features like anti-aliasing, depending on the visual load."

                "Belittling Zen Pinball because "it's just pinball" misrepresents it. Zen Pinball / Pinball FX shoot for nearly photo-realistic tables in terms of modeling, textures, and shaders. It must also run at a locked 60fps for stability and playability. Which it does. The graphical sophistication of Zen's product is actually up there with games that have larger budgets from big studios."

                Let me just say right now you have no idea what you are talking about and have never coded a line in your life. This game is not some epic GPU hogging masterpiece bud.

                Total hogwash. They remaster games like Ico and Okami in 1080p native. Many more are in 1080p on PSN that do more than this game ever will.

                If you think Warhawk was an easy game with no shaders you are seriously mistaken. That is a 32 player game man with 4xMSAA and it came out years ago. Sure, it's dated. Of course it is. But there are 32 players flying around large maps with tanks and soldiers shooting guns and a large draw distance.

                Having less jaggies really helps it along still to this day. Jaggies destroy games. Until devs start making their games proper this argument will not die. One of the reasons I wish they would PORT THIS TO STEAM!

                Sorry, but Pinball isn't stressing the PS3 LOL. They have plenty of room to put in some kind of AA. MLAA and FXAA are almost free on the PS3 so your argument is dead right there.

                There are games like Super Stardust and anything by pixeljunk that run in 1080p native and no jaggies. There are multitudes of games that run at 720p with 10x more than pinball will ever have going and they also have 2xMSAA in the case of Uncharted 2 and usually MLAA or some sort on many others.

                Pinball is not stressing anything on ANY system. And I am tired of looking at these tables with jaggies. It takes me out of my immersion all the time when it should not need to. They can at least afford 2xMSAA there is no doubt in my mind.

                And no I don't need glasses YOU are the one that obviously needs some glasses. The jaggies are crystal clear. I play on a 42 inch TV and they have been crystal clear and ugly as sin since the first release.
                Well, I don't mind the graphics as much as you do but I can tell you this. Everything on these forums is seen by a Zen representative and all questions, comments, concerns, and suggestions are taken seriously. I would't be surprised if you get an official answer early next week when once they get back to work. In the mean time I would try to enjoy the tables as they are. The tables still provide the best video pinball around and have come a long way in the past couple of years. Cheers.
                PSN: Bearded_Warrior

                Table Wishlist: Lord of the Rings, God of War, Final Fantasy VII, The Legend of Zelda, and Marvel's Archangel.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alex Atkin UK View Post
                  Except the 360 has a superior GPU that makes anti-aliasing somewhat easier than on PS3. So if anything I suspect the game is locked down to what the PS3 can do WITHOUT using the SPUs (because anything done using the SPUs would be a PITA to port to other systems).

                  The end result is the same though, the game has to settle for what can be relatively easily done on all consoles.

                  I always felt Zen Pinball didn't play as well or smoothly as Pinball FX, probably due to it being tricky to port over to PS3. Makes me wonder if something like the physics might actually be running on the SPUs now after all.

                  I do agree though, I think I would rather sacrifice a little of the flashy arcade effects if that meant I could run the game in 1080p. After all, I was able to run Pro Pinball in 1080p on PC on far worse hardware than the PS3. Then again, that was a purely realistic pinball simulation, far different to what Zen produce.
                  Pro Pinball is all prerendered, 2D graphics and physics.

                  The majority of 3D games on PS3, even retail games that can afford to spend more on tech, don't have antialiasing. Warhawk is very much an exception. A lot of games don't even render at 720p.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Solitude View Post
                    Pro Pinball is all prerendered, 2D graphics and physics.

                    The majority of 3D games on PS3, even retail games that can afford to spend more on tech, don't have antialiasing. Warhawk is very much an exception. A lot of games don't even render at 720p.
                    With all do respect, and I do have a lot I love your tables and hope some day you guys port to STEAM. THE VAST MAJORITY of games on PS3 have AA and many many more have FSAA or FXAA or MLAA. Sorry, but you clearly do not quite no the story here. I think you should have the team take a look at your PS3 SDK a little closer because they offer FXAA/MLAA almost for free and it requires at most a week's time to implement with 3 or so devs.

                    I know this for fact. I'm sorry but you are wrong. There are very few games out today that do not use some sort of FXAA/MLAA. I cannot even name one at the moment. Infamous 2 was the last major Sony game without AA and it had high resolution textures to hide it pretty well.

                    Seriously, man. I know devs personally who have the SDK and they can port FXAA or MLAA into their game from Sony in about 3 days with no problems depending on code. Obviously, I have no idea how your code works.

                    For instance, I can list from my own personal collection, All Resistance games use Quincunx which is awful, Killzone 2 does as well and looks good still to this day, 3 uses MLAA, LBP2 uses MLAA, Uncharted 2 uses MSAA 2x, 3 uses FXAA Custom, EVERY SINGLE remastered PS2 game uses at least 2xMSAA and the ICO collection uses MLAA with 1080p native, Shatter and Stardust use 4xMSAA, I think Siren uses 4xMSAA, all pixeljunk games are entirely jaggy free, Williams own pinball game I believe uses MSAA, Heavenly Sword uses MSAA, LA NOIRE uses 2xMSAA and that game has a LOT going on, little games like Wakeboarding HD have 2xMSAA I think, Dead Nation uses MSAA at 1080p, and I don't need to really go on here.

                    The list is endless. Almost EVERY single game on PS3 uses some sort of AA no matter how bad.

                    No doubt in my mind you guys could port MLAA into this game or FXAA within a week's time and there really is no reason at all you should not be able to use 2xMSAA.
                    Last edited by Khronikos; 09-21-2012, 09:19 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Do you actually see a lot of jaggies? What kind of TV or monitor are you using and how close are you sitting? I haven't really noticed any except maybe the Iron Man table on marvel pinball, particularly when the table was loading. All the ps3 games with AA that I do have usually have minimal AA that offer little advantage in terms of graphical clarity/sharpness compared to performance hit they take. I have Red Dead Redemption, Metal Gear 4, Modern Warfare series all have some form of AA but still look pretty bad with a lot of jaggies and drops in frame rate. MW plays pretty smoothly but they don't have a lot of high res textures. And in my opinion, performance and smooth game play for pinball is much more important than having some crappy AA. I think PS3 games with great graphics and AA and good performance are rare. I can't actually think of any off the top of my head. That being said, I wouldn't mind if ZP2 had AA as long as I had the option to turn it off if I was getting unacceptable drops in frame rate.
                      Last edited by surf1der; 09-22-2012, 12:06 AM.

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                      • #12
                        You're really hung up on anti-aliasing as if it somehow is the single defining element of graphics quality. It isn't. If you code graphics (which you appear to imply) or talk to devs, then you really ought to know that. I personally think the game looks just fine, but I understand that different people have different opinions on what is acceptable in terms of graphical quality. It is also a possibility that any issues you notice might be a mix of software and hardware; not all televisions or monitors are made equally. That possibility cannot be dismissed.

                        The part of your post that incites me to respond is your list of games, which frankly, I find absurd. You compare a current generation game to something like Ico HD. Really? Come on. It's difficult enough to compare either performance or empirical results (i.e., frame rate) from one game engine to another, but dragging out last generation engines is an awful comparison. And you're very dismissive of what a game engine does outside of rendering graphics. The assumption that filtering, texturing, or anti-aliasing techniques are cost-free is just plain wrong. Without that assumption, one simply cannot blithely state that a given feature can (and should) be implemented without a performance hit.

                        Originally posted by Khronikos View Post
                        With all do respect, and I do have a lot I love your tables and hope some day you guys port to STEAM. THE VAST MAJORITY of games on PS3 have AA and many many more have FSAA or FXAA or MLAA. Sorry, but you clearly do not quite no the story here. I think you should have the team take a look at your PS3 SDK a little closer because they offer FXAA/MLAA almost for free and it requires at most a week's time to implement with 3 or so devs.

                        I know this for fact. I'm sorry but you are wrong. There are very few games out today that do not use some sort of FXAA/MLAA. I cannot even name one at the moment. Infamous 2 was the last major Sony game without AA and it had high resolution textures to hide it pretty well.

                        Seriously, man. I know devs personally who have the SDK and they can port FXAA or MLAA into their game from Sony in about 3 days with no problems depending on code. Obviously, I have no idea how your code works.

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                        • #13
                          http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241

                          A little dated, but still informative.

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                          • #14
                            what does jaggies mean , i play on 480i , it sucks i know ... on hulk when the screen moves it becomes all blury , if thats what you mean by jaggies
                            i don't have a pci use ps3 browser

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by maink View Post
                              what does jaggies mean , i play on 480i , it sucks i know ... on hulk when the screen moves it becomes all blury , if thats what you mean by jaggies
                              I post on Beyond3d regularly. Anyway, there are tons of games on PS3 with great graphics and AA. I just listed a bazillion of them lofl. Sorry, but Sony's implementation of MLAA is almost free from an engine standpoint. Guerrilla Games and others have pretty much confirmed this. At least if you leave a SPU open for it which there is simply no way this game is using all the SPUs to max. It's friggin' pinball.

                              Your assertion that AA is not one of the main things about graphics is absurd. Do you have a PC? Are you aware of how great games look without jaggies. It is literally on the top 3 most important things about 3d rendering because it makes the picture appeal to your eyes in a more realistic fashion. I have a high-end fully backlit LED 42 inches and yes I sit close and yes I have a high-end PC as well. There is a reason hollywood studios use enormous amounts of AA.

                              The fact is this game needs some kind of AA. If it doesn't get it fine but please look into porting this great game to STEAM where you would find a very nice audience as there are no good pinball games on there. Please, from a financial standpoint porting to STEAM is not that costly and they basically give you free patches or near that. Many devs are surprises at how well their game do on Steam.
                              Last edited by Khronikos; 09-23-2012, 03:11 PM.

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