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The Walking Dead Pinball

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  • surf1der
    replied
    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. But this kind of design is not unprecedented in the design of real pinball tables or Zen pinball tables for that matter. I have only played on TWD table for a 10 minutes last night. I wouldn't call that right orbit shot the best design but neither is center loop shot on Blade. If you forget to hold that right flipper up a perfect shot to that loop will likely cause a drain. It is risky shot that you should avoid. Plenty of tables have these dangerous types of shots that should be avoided most of the time.

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  • tenorhero
    replied
    This is an interesting conundrum. I can't say I'm a pinball purist or elite player although my scores usually rank in the top 20 - at least on the PS3.

    For me it's the challenge of the table that keeps me playing as well as how fun the table is for me. Active slings make it even better.

    Interestingly enough that right orbit shot going Down the Middle is so Random to me. Yes it does happen which is somewhat confusing. I wonder if it's some type of glitch or something? There have been tables in TPA that have that random errant move. Cactus Canyon and Attack from MARS where on the way from the orbit which usually just rides down to your flippers randomly hits some mysterious post and goes straight down the middle.

    What I think the problem is on the active slings and the somewhat Bounciness of the posts at the out lanes is the the nudging game can come into place. The other problem is that nudging is more punishing in Zens tables. You can only do a few before Tilting. Plus Nudging doesn't change the direction of the ball like it does in TPA.

    As it is the active slings isn't what makes the game challenging IMO. It does however give the table some sense of excitement and fear as the ball can head into the outlanes. Since most of Zen's tables already have ways to light kickbacks, it isn't a problem until you activate your kickbacks of course. Also most of the time it's just as easy doing the 'Death Save' on all tables.

    Yes I agree that making good shots shouldn't be punishing but as I mentioned before it's pretty random.
    Last edited by tenorhero; 08-29-2014, 06:11 PM.

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  • daverthehutt
    replied
    Easy or hard is not the issue. Is it fair for a perfectly made shot to go SDTM. Hell no!

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  • Mammouth
    replied
    Originally posted by edc5036 View Post
    GOTG too easy... WD too hard. Tough job you table devs have... someone's always going to complain
    A table can be easy and a little boring (PvZ), but can also but easy and fun (GotG, Mars). Sometimes, it's good to have an easy table with lot of fun when you don't want to play too seriously.
    WD is not hard, it's broken since you drain your ball with aimed shot. Hard tables are like X-Men, Earth Defense, Civil war if you don't go for the "right hole spam".

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  • edc5036
    replied
    GOTG too easy... WD too hard. Tough job you table devs have... someone's always going to complain.

    Personally I love the balance Zen has been pulling off recently. Yes this table can be annoying and frustrating, but that's what pinball's all about! Focus on the kickbacks and you can have long games on this table.... and the right loop hasn't been too bad to me. Its went SDTM once out of probably a couple hundred times for me so far... just keep that left flipper raised. It will likely send the ball to the slingshots but thats why those kicks are so important

    Easy extra balls on this table... missions are easy to activate and on a lot of them a ballout is impossible... overall I love the challenge of this table. Not as frustrating as New Hope or Deadpool imo. Keep it up Zen

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  • daverthehutt
    replied
    Originally posted by wims View Post
    Well I will try to be clear (sorry it's not easy for me, I like to write but english is not my mother tongue). I'm sure it could be possible to get a high score on Walking Dead. I'll get it, surely. But I'm a "technical" player, I like control and shoot where I've decided (also 1 on 10 is a bad shoot). On Walking Dead that's not the case, it's just impossible to make a construction. The time you waste to try to control the ball, floating between outlanes and slingshots, you just got 3 seconds to finish a main mission.

    So where is the fun in this gameplay ? Just suffer. A game must be fun, to stay popular.

    If I (a hardgamer) encounter the problem, I think it will be the case for casual gamers too : like all gamers, they like constructive games. Ok Zen wants a more punitive physic, this physic that introduced them to their current success. But the gameroom becomes "pinball for casual game" (like you play Tetris or Candy Crush) with the new tables.

    The question is, if they'd started marketing their tables with this physic, may be community will not be as huge as today. Still those who follow them from the beginning feel frustrated, forgotten.

    But it's also very daring and "pelleted" (?, in french they're a sense in this word) to launch a new license with a new and so wobbly physic. We'll see if the success will always be there, if they build a table for the Walking Dead season 2... I hope ! But nothing is so certain!
    One more thing, I bought the original ZP after playing the demo of El Dorado. I own every table except WD, which I will get tomorrow. If Deadpool had been the demo, I would not own any tables. I’m using Deadpool as an example because I feel it has 2 or 3 huge problems that completely ruin what could have been a great table.

    So if this trend continues, there is a good chance the community will get smaller. Of course new physics may attract just as many people as it loses. Pinball purist who argue that this is more realistic need to remember, this is fantasy pinball, let’s keep it that way. If the table designers want it more realistic, then they need to stop having all the characters fighting in the background as well as all the other real world impossible gimmicks we all love from these tables.

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  • daverthehutt
    replied
    I have not played WD yet so I don’t have an opinion yet. After reading Mammouth’s post I’ve got a bad feeling that I’m going see more of an annoying trend Zen has been guilty of lately. Punishing perfectly made shots is not acceptable. The point is to make the shot and be rewarded. Missing shots or having them role down a ramp because of insufficient power should be dangerous. I’ve seen more and more of these over the last about 10 tables.

    I had a lot of trouble with the Blade table early on. There’s a mini-orbit on the upper far right side that just infuriated me with SDTM drains. However there is a way to save it with an upper right flipper. When going for that shot I’m always ready for it. Of course there are still times I hit it on accident and I’m not fast enough, I’m OK with that (punishment for missing my intended shot). Things like the Deadpool center ramp are inexcusable.

    I don’t hate the super slingshots (I prefer the less bouncy ones), but if you have them make the kickbacks reasonable to activate. Strong slingshots tables must have reasonable kickback activation. Deadpool is an otherwise good table that I can’t play for more than 3 minutes without getting pissed. The right kickback on Return of the Jedi is completely random to activate. I also hate kickbacks that get activated by spelling words with rollovers at the inlanes or outlanes, but the rails return the balls to a point after the rollover. Kickbacks, ballsaves, and extraballs should be rewards for knowing what I’m doing, not just dumb luck.

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  • wims
    replied
    Well I will try to be clear (sorry it's not easy for me, I like to write but english is not my mother tongue). I'm sure it could be possible to get a high score on Walking Dead. I'll get it, surely. But I'm a "technical" player, I like control and shoot where I've decided (also 1 on 10 is a bad shoot). On Walking Dead that's not the case, it's just impossible to make a construction. The time you waste to try to control the ball, floating between outlanes and slingshots, you just got 3 seconds to finish a main mission.

    So where is the fun in this gameplay ? Just suffer. A game must be fun, to stay popular.

    If I (a hardgamer) encounter the problem, I think it will be the case for casual gamers too : like all gamers, they like constructive games. Ok Zen wants a more punitive physic, this physic that introduced them to their current success. But the gameroom becomes "pinball for casual game" (like you play Tetris or Candy Crush) with the new tables.

    The question is, if they'd started marketing their tables with this physic, may be community will not be as huge as today. Still those who follow them from the beginning feel frustrated, forgotten.

    But it's also very daring and "pelleted" (?, in french they're a sense in this word) to launch a new license with a new and so wobbly physic. We'll see if the success will always be there, if they build a table for the Walking Dead season 2... I hope ! But nothing is so certain!

    Leave a comment:


  • Cloda
    replied
    Originally posted by FourWinds View Post
    I don't think it's such a killer either. Just played what must be my 3rd or 4th game, 43M and two missions complete with no idea what I was doing. Perhaps I'm not making the shot from hell that gives the SDTM; I'll try again later.

    I like the table so far, but I'm not a fan of side games that are not pinball, and so I don't like the shooting; it spoils the flow of the game imo.
    Both these guys that are making these comments on the table being unfair are top players that have Billion+ scores on probably all the tables where it is possible. They are used to having long, calculated games where you get punished for making reckless, inaccurate or weak shots and not for good and required shots. On this table, you take a big risk in shooting the right orbit or the cross table shot from the top right flipper. Coupling that with the hectic bounce from the slingshot, makes for a much less controlled experience. I still maintain that you have more control on this table than on Dead Pool but that has more to do with the fact that the kick-backs are easier to activate and reactivate. I actually really enjoy Dead Pool, but I doubt that I will ever have the opportunity (on Xbox360) to experience all the modes to its fullest because of the difficult kick-backs. Anyways, well timed required shots should not be so risky that they can lead to an unavoidable drain, that equates to being unduly harsh and just plain unfair. I like a difficult table, but also believe that you should have more control of your destiny - I have never been one for gambling

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  • FourWinds
    replied
    I don't think it's such a killer either. Just played what must be my 3rd or 4th game, 43M and two missions complete with no idea what I was doing. Perhaps I'm not making the shot from hell that gives the SDTM; I'll try again later.

    I like the table so far, but I'm not a fan of side games that are not pinball, and so I don't like the shooting; it spoils the flow of the game imo.

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  • MegatronG1
    replied
    Hmmm, played a bit of this table on the PS3 yesterday and liked it, only got to about 13m but can't wait to get a good session going on it, also waiting to play it on the PS4.

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  • skyway73
    replied
    Reading this thread I'm beginning to wonder if I'm playing this table on a different system maybe? I'm on PS3 and find getting a good long game on this no problem really

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  • wims
    replied
    Originally posted by Mammouth View Post
    ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !!
    Zen, i'm a ZP Veteran. I have played since the first ZP1 on PS3. And i'm about to give up.

    Orbit FORTIFY => Plane ! WTF !
    You lift the left flip to avoid the plane => slingshot => outlane ! WTF ?! How am i suppose to use this orbit ??!!
    Generally, you shot on an orbit, you try to control by lifting the flip => slingshot => outlane
    Orbit SNIPER by the higher flip => Plane !
    The ball get out of the bumper by the SNIPER orbit => hurt the top of the slingshot => outlane
    Impossible to do the "choice" after a mission because the ball is too bouncy, so you shot the first ramp/orbit you can => "choice" impossible
    Timing very strict + ball uncontrolable + ball bouncing everywhere (particulary in the outlanes) => if the mission can't be made by spamming the SWARN orbit or the ramps, it's very difficult.

    Ok, it's not 100% of the time but the amount of time i have raged in 1 hour because of these is TOO DAMN HIGH !!!!

    Here is my point of view :
    - Hard slingshot = slingchiotte (chiotte means bog in french) ! Slingshot are hard on real pinball machine because they want you to put your money on it, you already have our money when we buy the table.
    - Orbit which gives you a plane when you shot it perfectly = chiotte ! I have no idea why your beta testers have not seen that !
    - ball uncontrolable + bounces everywhere = chiotte !
    There is no pleasure in this for me.

    WHY ? WHY ????
    The ambiance is fantastic, missions are good, design is beautiful, ideas are great, and some choice of gameplay just ruin all of that.
    Next time I see a table with hard slingshot, i pass. Like Prof Xavier says on my favorite table X-Men : I can't take it anymore.

    I go back on Guardians of the Galaxy. Here i have fun.
    So this is too my point of view, and that's the big question. I just played 5 games of Walking Dead but already seen the damages.

    While you were the leader in the simulation pinball market, largely due to your gameplay, why were you inspired by the physic of the other studios (such as Pinball Arcade), with their borderline gameplay ? Logically, it's the little ones who are inspired by the leader, not the other way. We're witnessing a reverse trend, which is becoming more and more space in the gameroom with these recent releases (A New Hope, Deadpool, and now The Walking Dead, all these tables are more difficult than a real pinball machine).

    I thought the start of the competition would not bother you, because between original creation and existing tables, it's not the same market. But the real question wasn't there, and the answer is worse than that : you let yourself influence by the others, you finaly doubt of your physic by comparing your games to others. Instead, please take more time to analyze the gameplay of your own tables, and you'll see a table like Walking Dead could really be fun with a classic physic (like Eldorado for example).

    I read a few years ago you were running towards a more punitive gameplay, because you didn't want games last for hours. Why not, but not with slingshots that defy Earth gravity, or by creating special zones where ball float illogicaly, because there were there, specially near the outlanes. If you insist on this point, don't be surprised if one day your recipes will be those of Pinball Arcade, which is struggling today to ask for player's donations to produce a new table.

    Whatever happens, I think I'll follow you, because your tables are really beautifull and the cost is perfect. But what a frustrating to see the essence of your games has changed in a few months, under the influence of your smaller competitors. That doesn't make sense !

    Instead, thanks a lot for reading me

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  • skyway73
    replied
    Originally posted by Cloda View Post
    The rule sheet gives a couple of ways of scoring extra balls. I can't remember that well now but it is something like finish all the main missions, finish (or just start?) 10 side missions, after multiplier x10, certain amount of combos, lock hole x7.

    I'm beginning to develop a bit of a strategy now that goes something like - left orbit and mini-orbit through the spinners for kickbacks (15 spins per kickback). Play mission 5 first because it is mostly a multi-ball (protection against no kickbacks), play mission 1 to help raise the multipliers. Shoot right ramp and then into bumpers to raise multipliers and eventually get extra ball. Only shoot right orbit when ball-save is activated. Always reactivate the kick-backs before doing any further missions/side missions (unless it is one of the multi-balls).

    Haven't had a real solid game yet, but there are promising signs that this table can eventually deliver big scores.
    Yep that's pretty much my strategy. And while the missions themselves don't offer massive points, the Wizard mode does! The only mission I struggle with is getting the ball to be caught by the walkers 3 times.

    Another tip: try to avoid hitting the top zombie off your right-upper flipper as it often ends with the ball heading straight to the right outlane. I really love this table, I've got a few ways I think it could be even better but I want to play it a bit more first

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  • OriginalEther
    replied
    Originally posted by Mammouth View Post
    There is no "table for casual that are easy" and "hard table with realism". I also know that Guardians of the Galaxy is a really easy table.
    A table can be hard and fun : X-Men, Avengers, Fear itself, Earth Defense, Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2, they are hard tables which can punish you easily with a miss shot. But they don't punish you with a perfectly aimed shot ! That's why I rage against this table.
    In fact, a table can be easy and a little boring : El Dorado, Excalibur. The concept is fun !
    A lot of tables punish you when you make shots that you're supposed to. It's actually hate that far more than hyperactive slingshots.
    Nicora's tables are notorious for it, but his aren't the only ones.
    The Storm Spinner on the X-Men table almost always causes at least one ball drain for me.

    BTW, I don't get where people think Guardians of the Galaxy is easy. Is it easy to get to the Wizard mode? Yes, just because all you have to do is start the missions. Completing the missions is another story; Yondu and Guadians Multiball are the only two I can complete with any regularity.

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