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  • #91
    Originally posted by edc5036 View Post
    GOTG too easy... WD too hard. Tough job you table devs have... someone's always going to complain
    A table can be easy and a little boring (PvZ), but can also but easy and fun (GotG, Mars). Sometimes, it's good to have an easy table with lot of fun when you don't want to play too seriously.
    WD is not hard, it's broken since you drain your ball with aimed shot. Hard tables are like X-Men, Earth Defense, Civil war if you don't go for the "right hole spam".
    When Mammouth will be hungry, it means that thin people will have already died

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    • #92
      Easy or hard is not the issue. Is it fair for a perfectly made shot to go SDTM. Hell no!

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      • #93
        This is an interesting conundrum. I can't say I'm a pinball purist or elite player although my scores usually rank in the top 20 - at least on the PS3.

        For me it's the challenge of the table that keeps me playing as well as how fun the table is for me. Active slings make it even better.

        Interestingly enough that right orbit shot going Down the Middle is so Random to me. Yes it does happen which is somewhat confusing. I wonder if it's some type of glitch or something? There have been tables in TPA that have that random errant move. Cactus Canyon and Attack from MARS where on the way from the orbit which usually just rides down to your flippers randomly hits some mysterious post and goes straight down the middle.

        What I think the problem is on the active slings and the somewhat Bounciness of the posts at the out lanes is the the nudging game can come into place. The other problem is that nudging is more punishing in Zens tables. You can only do a few before Tilting. Plus Nudging doesn't change the direction of the ball like it does in TPA.

        As it is the active slings isn't what makes the game challenging IMO. It does however give the table some sense of excitement and fear as the ball can head into the outlanes. Since most of Zen's tables already have ways to light kickbacks, it isn't a problem until you activate your kickbacks of course. Also most of the time it's just as easy doing the 'Death Save' on all tables.

        Yes I agree that making good shots shouldn't be punishing but as I mentioned before it's pretty random.
        Last edited by tenorhero; 08-29-2014, 06:11 PM.

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        • #94
          I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. But this kind of design is not unprecedented in the design of real pinball tables or Zen pinball tables for that matter. I have only played on TWD table for a 10 minutes last night. I wouldn't call that right orbit shot the best design but neither is center loop shot on Blade. If you forget to hold that right flipper up a perfect shot to that loop will likely cause a drain. It is risky shot that you should avoid. Plenty of tables have these dangerous types of shots that should be avoided most of the time.

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          • #95
            I think in real pinball most dangerous successful shots are bash toys, like grave/sparky/coffin in Metallica, recognizer/disc in Tron, most everything you want to shoot in Iron Man, etc. But, there are not many bash toys in Zen games and a lot of the fun and danger of bash toys really comes from airballs and ball spin, neither of which physics in Zen games really allows for.

            Most dangerous returns from good shots ramps/slings/orbits on real tables are dangerous because they put you in the slings, not because they can drain you directly (of course there are MANY examples where a shot that only makes it halfway up a ramp is in severe danger).

            I can understand why people don't like the right orbit shot, but I think the table is better for it being there. It is first of all not nearly as dangerous as is claimed, it is never unsaveable and you often don't even need to nudge. You do have to make a quick judgement about what to do, though. Second, it is very rarely necessary to make that shot, unless you are playing for the Fortress multiball, which you shouldn't if you feel the shot is a big risk. Even in modes where that shot is lit, you usually (always??) have another shot lit that you can choose instead. It is refreshing and enjoyable to me to have some Zen tables where you have to put some thought into whether a shot is worthwhile.

            Anyway, don't shoot that orbit and don't use the upper flipper to bash the zombie, and you immediately reduce your chances of a rough drain by a lot. You can still light the kickbacks by shooting the orbit through the left side, or through the smile loop which you will be hitting a lot anyway to bash the zombie, or by shooting the right orbit in modes where you will be saved from a drain (Scout Ahead, when you have extra time during the single ball part of mode 5, I think one or two others).

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            • #96
              Originally posted by ctx View Post
              I think in real pinball most dangerous successful shots are bash toys, like grave/sparky/coffin in Metallica, recognizer/disc in Tron, most everything you want to shoot in Iron Man, etc. But, there are not many bash toys in Zen games and a lot of the fun and danger of bash toys really comes from airballs and ball spin, neither of which physics in Zen games really allows for.

              Most dangerous returns from good shots ramps/slings/orbits on real tables are dangerous because they put you in the slings, not because they can drain you directly (of course there are MANY examples where a shot that only makes it halfway up a ramp is in severe danger).

              I can understand why people don't like the right orbit shot, but I think the table is better for it being there. It is first of all not nearly as dangerous as is claimed, it is never unsaveable and you often don't even need to nudge. You do have to make a quick judgement about what to do, though. Second, it is very rarely necessary to make that shot, unless you are playing for the Fortress multiball, which you shouldn't if you feel the shot is a big risk. Even in modes where that shot is lit, you usually (always??) have another shot lit that you can choose instead. It is refreshing and enjoyable to me to have some Zen tables where you have to put some thought into whether a shot is worthwhile.

              Anyway, don't shoot that orbit and don't use the upper flipper to bash the zombie, and you immediately reduce your chances of a rough drain by a lot. You can still light the kickbacks by shooting the orbit through the left side, or through the smile loop which you will be hitting a lot anyway to bash the zombie, or by shooting the right orbit in modes where you will be saved from a drain (Scout Ahead, when you have extra time during the single ball part of mode 5, I think one or two others).
              A whole lot of sense spoken there CTX, couldn't agree more.

              Again, I would like to know if players finding a lot of drains from the right loop are playing on PS3 as it has happened to me only once or twice and I've played quite a bit. Or maybe I'm just avoiding it, not sure.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by ctx View Post
                I can understand why people don't like the right orbit shot, but I think the table is better for it being there. It is first of all not nearly as dangerous as is claimed, it is never unsaveable and you often don't even need to nudge. You do have to make a quick judgement about what to do, though. Second, it is very rarely necessary to make that shot, unless you are playing for the Fortress multiball, which you shouldn't if you feel the shot is a big risk. Even in modes where that shot is lit, you usually (always??) have another shot lit that you can choose instead. It is refreshing and enjoyable to me to have some Zen tables where you have to put some thought into whether a shot is worthwhile.
                Couldn't agree more.

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                • #98
                  After a few games, I go back a little on my first impressions. Physic is not so difficult as I said (less than Deadpool), but still pretty complex for casual or beginners gamers, who couldn't hope to play more than 10 minutes per game.

                  In terms of architecture, some lanes must be avoid for a best game (not fun cause you have to play with 75% of the table).

                  The atmosphere is really terrible (yeah well the first table that is not PEGI 7 !) and I really like.

                  To conclude, it takes a special learning and you had to strive above that WD table to begin to enjoy (that learning isn't really funy, and not accessible for beginners). So already be a fan of the gameroom for much enjoy, and hope for success.
                  French fans forum : www.LUPsClub.com

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                  • #99
                    My first impressions were really good. I'm really happy to finally see a table with energetic slings and mean outlanes that are more like a real pinball table. It also has a lot of different, cool ideas and rules that I like. Love that it doesn't have a physical cabinet to contain it, but that it sits embedded in the world.

                    However now that I have played many, many games of it on both Vita and PS4 my initial impression has changed. For fun-factor, satisfying/interesting shots and overall design I'd place this one towards the bottom of the list of all the Zen/PFx tables as far as being "good" goes.

                    It feels like it needed more time to cook before release. Anyone know who designed this one?

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                    • As a disclaimer, I haven't bought this table yet.

                      I think wims has summed it up well. There is a difference in something being difficult because it's challenging, and something being difficult because it's annoying.

                      As a reference, Masters of the Force does both. The missions themselves are challenging. That's cool. But it's annoying as hell to get those missions started. That's not so cool.

                      I get the vibe that Walking Dead, with it's slingshots and this orbit, falls more into the annoying category.

                      I don't think this were Zen should be aiming for a difficult table. I know some here find the tables too easy. But these posters are better than 95-99% of the players out there. They would also buy a generic themed table. When Zen pays money to get the Walking Dead (or any other trademark) license, I think they are aiming to also attract Walking Dead fans who otherwise wouldn't consider video pinball. How many of these fans are going to buy another table when they can't get anywhere on this table for the above mentioned reasons?
                      Tables completed: Ms Splosion Man, Spiderman, BioLab, Captain America, Empire Strikes Back, The Avengers, Wolverine, World War Hulk, Sorcerer's Lair, Fantastic Four, Blade, X-Men, Thor, Moon Knight, Infinity Gauntlet, Super League Football, Starfighter Assault, Han Solo
                      Billionaire's Club: Spider-Man, World War Hulk, The Avengers, Sorcerer's Lair, Empire Strikes Back, Captain America, Ms. Splosion Man, Han Solo

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                      • After playing more I have to agree that the slingshot power is a pain. Yeah sure a few spins give you kickbacks, but not 'all the protection you need'... No they don't, as a few times I've had a kickback bounce between slingshots and go back down the same outlane! I've had to move the nudge to the d-pad too, so I can be fast enough if some shot I make wants to go STDM on me.

                        I still like it, but I'm going along with those who say that this randomness will mean it's not going to be at the top of my favourite list.

                        P.S. Why can't nudge be set to both the left stick and d-pad at the same time; why is it an OR instead of an AND?

                        Comment


                        • The walking dead table, hmmm what to think about it...

                          Theme, artwork, style i like it very much, Zen really nailed this one to represent every part of the game in this table including atmosphere and sounds.

                          But there is something that i really don't like about it and that is game play.

                          1.st there are so much of ramps in it , like in Guardians of the Galaxy, Hulk, Droids,Dr. Strange. Why are you spamming so much with ramps on every table? The complexity of the tables aren't achieved by the number of ramps but with the diversity of game modes.
                          Look some original tables like Bride of Pinbot, Star trek, Circus Voltaire.

                          2.nd Please stop adding hard to hit buttons(holes) on the side of every table, every time it is the same layout. You must wait for ball at the tip of the flipper to hit that one, or get lucky bounce from bumpers and that is really annoying and killing the flow of every game. Every table should be accessible for hitting point not to get lucky shoots.
                          Every button to hit it is almost and 90 degree angle to hit + impossible ball speed it is really impossible to hit i am not spider-man to have my seances tingling.

                          3. Mechanics of the ball is to light and fast that you cant even react when you hit side of the ramp and then it drains. Either change the physics of the ball a little or give us bigger play field for future tables.

                          4. This is the question. Why players choose their modes with flippers which they wanna play, why aren't they changing randomly when ball hit bumpers? ---> In this way i can rig the game, choose 1 mode to play and fail it on purpose just to get some points, and play it again and again.

                          5. Why aren't in any pinball table random reward system implemented? When you hit hole 3 times you get chance to get some random reward 2x,4x , bigger score on ramps, extra ball lit, side pits lit, instant mission to play etc...

                          6. I have noticed that you have added almost the same mission from PVZ to TWD, in PVZ there was the challange and in TWD that is the mission of shooting zombies as they are coming to the ball drain.


                          Overall i like the table (in theme kinda way), it is refreshing addition to walk away from Marvel & Star Wars spam --- it almost feel like ZEN had finally released original table, like Pasha, Rome, Tesla, Bio lab, Mars, Excalibur

                          For example of very good table design which offers luck,modes (2:54), challenge,clear visible skill shoots,big clear play-field, not ridiculous ramp spam is

                          Circus Voltaire
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ybwFCp_bGc
                          or
                          High Roller Casino Pinball -which implemented whole casino themes like poker, black jack, slot machines roulette table
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj540Edprgc
                          or
                          Who Dunnit? - they have implemented gambling with your points to get some reward--- that is really ingenuous.
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GopPfSoSOg

                          There is so much great ideas for having in the gameplay of every table just please look at features on other pinball machines and what made them unforgettable original.
                          My advice to you developers, before trying to build another table go out and play some old pinball machines, watch their mechanics , software, modes, features and then design a table.
                          Last edited by Arie01; 08-31-2014, 09:20 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by wims View Post
                            To conclude, it takes a special learning and you had to strive above that WD table to begin to enjoy (that learning isn't really funy, and not accessible for beginners). So already be a fan of the gameroom for much enjoy, and hope for success.
                            Originally posted by OriginalEther View Post
                            I don't think this were Zen should be aiming for a difficult table. I know some here find the tables too easy. But these posters are better than 95-99% of the players out there. They would also buy a generic themed table. When Zen pays money to get the Walking Dead (or any other trademark) license, I think they are aiming to also attract Walking Dead fans who otherwise wouldn't consider video pinball. How many of these fans are going to buy another table when they can't get anywhere on this table for the above mentioned reasons?
                            The more I play this table, as a long time follower of Zen, the more I see its pro's and con's and the evolution of their table designs. This table is lovely to look at but actually don't have that much going on, on it but you have to play through wizard mode (as far as I can tell?) to get a big score and because of the slingshots it has some real inherent difficulty. Now that I have learned to go back to a very careful and calculated style of game-play for this table (e.g. catch the ball before shooting, always have the kickbacks activated before doing anything else, only do risky shots when have ball-save or in a multi-ball) I have managed to play through wizard mode a couple of times and I can see a Billion score being on the cards for me without spamming anything. The table thus fits in nicely for me with Zen's broad selection of tables. The point I agree with though, that has been made by both Wims and OriginalEther, is that you would have expected a table aimed at a specific crowd of non-pinball followers to be one where you can keep the ball alive on for long without too much effort. Without that, they will just have a bit of fun, but probably accept that pinball is just too tough and confusing for them. Ms. Splosion man did that really well for me. Anyway, the deed has been done, so lets hope they get a chance to do a table for the second season of the Walking Dead game where they can then make it a more accessible table for beginner players.
                            XBox One Gamertag - PinStratsDan

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                            Cloda's somewhat vain and sort of self-indulgent thread

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                            • Originally posted by Cloda View Post
                              where they can then make it a more accessible table for beginner players.
                              Difficulty level is a fundamental question in games.I'm an oldschool gamer.Starting out on the Atari 2600 over C64 then Amiga then Consoles and PC.Games back then could be bloody difficult, sometimes downright unfair and an incredible challenge.Over time most games have become childs play and are aimed at beginners.Sure some games you can increase the difficulty level but i'm not a believer in difficulty level.There should only be one.I like a challenge and if the game is too tough then i am too weak.I need to improve my skills, my knowledge of the game or go home.Besting a game is a great part of the experience.Nowadays games are gift wrapped for rookies to give them a feeling of accomplishment that really is of limited value because it is all too easy.
                              And concerning pinball specifically.Real pinball tables can be very tricky, they can be unfair.Total control is not absolutely given, there is an element of chance that is at the very nature and heart of pinball.I personally don't want the Zen tables that have no element of uncertainty and guarantee hours of secure gameplay.To me that is not what pinball gameplay is all about.And that is why i definitely welcome a little more dangerous slingshots and anything really to make the gameplay more tricky and challenging.

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                              • Originally posted by ALH2012 View Post
                                Difficulty level is a fundamental question in games.I'm an oldschool gamer.Starting out on the Atari 2600 over C64 then Amiga then Consoles and PC.Games back then could be bloody difficult, sometimes downright unfair and an incredible challenge.Over time most games have become childs play and are aimed at beginners.Sure some games you can increase the difficulty level but i'm not a believer in difficulty level.There should only be one.I like a challenge and if the game is too tough then i am too weak.I need to improve my skills, my knowledge of the game or go home.Besting a game is a great part of the experience.Nowadays games are gift wrapped for rookies to give them a feeling of accomplishment that really is of limited value because it is all too easy.
                                And concerning pinball specifically.Real pinball tables can be very tricky, they can be unfair.Total control is not absolutely given, there is an element of chance that is at the very nature and heart of pinball.I personally don't want the Zen tables that have no element of uncertainty and guarantee hours of secure gameplay.To me that is not what pinball gameplay is all about.And that is why i definitely welcome a little more dangerous slingshots and anything really to make the gameplay more tricky and challenging.
                                I agree with you in principle, also being an old school gamer, but in the context of Zen wanting to draw a new group of players to pinball the difficulty of this table might not be so conducive.
                                XBox One Gamertag - PinStratsDan

                                Pinball FX3 Tips & Strategy Guide YouTube Channel - PinStratsDan

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                                Cloda's somewhat vain and sort of self-indulgent thread

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