What's up with the crazy slingshots?

[Eternal21]

Let me start off by saying I love Zen pinball. I picked it up last summer and have been addicted ever since. My goal is to attain 100% trophy completion and I'm only 7 trophies away (though they are 7 hardest trophies ).

After playing every single table on PS4, I noticed a trend that really worries me. Virtually all recently released tables have slingshot physics that seem very unfair. On older tables, if the ball strikes a slingshot, it may bounce a little, sometimes going back and forth between the two slingshots, but it rarely, if ever ends up going in the outlane. Not so with the newer tables. The first time I saw this was on The Walking Dead table. When the ball would strike a slingshot, it would get violently get hit back and forth and often end up draining via outlanes.

Deadpool is another example. It's to the point I dread even touching that table to get the final trophy, because it's frustrating as hell. I understand punishing the player for making imprecise shots (like V12 table, that would drain the ball if you just looked at it wrong). But I should not be punished for having the ball hit the slingshot. Case in point, watch my capture below, where I was earning the single trophy on the Wild West Rampage table. That's a two minute game, where I drain twice due to slingshot bounces (@1:15 and @1:30):

I don't think I'm the only one that would like to see the slingshot power toned down in the future tables. I would love to play more of the Walking Dead table for example, but the crazy slingshots are an immediate turnoff. As it is, I just earn the trophy in those cases, and move on thanking god I never have to touch the table again.

[tenorhero]

Most of it is due to many of us that want more of a 'realistic' aspect of pinball. Look at real tables to see how active they are. Many of Zen's critics are the fact the sling shots aren't active and the ball has too much weight.

I love that the slings are active. They should still tune the table enough where you can still nudge the table enough to warrant some changes to the balls direction. As it is you can only nudge a few times before you get the 'TILT'.

Don't change the slings Zen. Always loved it Deep first tweaked it in one of his tables.

[deep]

Most of it is due to many of us that want more of a 'realistic' aspect of pinball. Look at real tables to see how active they are. Many of Zen's critics are the fact the sling shots aren't active and the ball has too much weight.

I love that the slings are active. They should still tune the table enough where you can still nudge the table enough to warrant some changes to the balls direction. As it is you can only nudge a few times before you get the 'TILT'.

Don't change the slings Zen. Always loved it Deep first tweaked it in one of his tables.

I am always working on perfecting the active slings. We can now keep the power and have minimal drains because of them. I will personaly check all the future tables to ensure they are precisely tweaked.

[Captain B. Zarre]

I am always working on perfecting the active slings. We can now keep the power and have minimal drains because of them. I will personaly check all the future tables to ensure they are precisely tweaked.

Sorry for going off topic but hey deep! I'm a huge fan of your tables, can't wait to see the next one.

What was the idea behind the new slingshots anyway? I remember being surprised how you had to nudge so much on A New Hope and South Park Super Sweet Pinball. Still, any advancement in physics is usually good, so it's nice to see that.

[deep]

Sorry for going off topic but hey deep! I'm a huge fan of your tables, can't wait to see the next one.

What was the idea behind the new slingshots anyway? I remember being surprised how you had to nudge so much on A New Hope and South Park Super Sweet Pinball. Still, any advancement in physics is usually good, so it's nice to see that.

Well, it is my goal to getting closer to the real life pinballs as much as possible with my tables. I play real pinball a lot, so I missed the real deal from my first tables. The overall feedbacks are positive about this, so we kept the settings and will implement them to future tables.

[Cloda]

Well, it is my goal to getting closer to the real life pinballs as much as possible with my tables. I play real pinball a lot, so I missed the real deal from my first tables. The overall feedbacks are positive about this, so we kept the settings and will implement them to future tables.

I'm certainly enjoying the new tables much more (except for Dead pool that is on another difficulty level on Xbox 360). Being able to play a decent game for half an hour and feeling satisfied of what I have achieved is much more fun than e.g. 24 hours on Paranormal. It is so much more fun to have a few attempts rather than just playing one marathon game. There is more than enough easier tables in the catalogue for new players to get better before attempting the more challenging tables. There are many skills to be learned to become a better player (e.g. shot selection, activating kickbacks etc.) so it is just right that there should be a range of tables as well with regards to difficulty.

[Eternal21]

Sigh. I really hope there are no trophies associated with the new Star Wars table. Those slingshots seem to be just as bad (watch around 2 minute mark):

[surf1der]

That ball could have easily been saved with an upward nudge. It was sitting right on top of the post before it slowly rolled into the outlane. Also on the Wild West video, the first drain could have been avoided if you had made a bounce pass or raised the flipper earlier to trap the ball. The second drain was caused a missed shot that was directed towards the slingshots. It most likely could have been saved with a nudge as well as it was bouncing around on the inlane and outlane posts.

My point is I don't think the slingshots are unfair. You usually only hit the slingshots if you have made a mistake. And even if the ball is directed toward the outlanes by the slingshots (which is what they are intended to do), you still have a good chance of saving the ball with a well timed nudge. I like the more realistic slingshots. And like Cloda said, being able to play a challenging 30 minute game is much more satisfying than playing marathon games like paranormal which go on forever.

[Mammouth]

As it is, I just earn the trophy in those cases, and move on thanking god I never have to touch the table again.

That's exectly what i have done with Walking Dead, Wild West, New Hope and Butter's.
On Deadpool, it's for another reason i will never touch this table again : i play with the 6th view and with this view, the end of the ramps which goes on the inlanes hides the A and D letter. So, when you are in the flow of the game, you can't see if the letter is turn on or off. It breaks the game, you can't purposely change the letter to spell WADE and gain the kickback. You just spam the button and hope you light the letter. Yes, i know that i can change the view... but i play with the 6th view ! Why must i have to change it for one table ?

That ball could have easily been saved with an upward nudge.

Yes, nudge and nudge and nudge and... TILT ! And sometimes, the nudge is not enough and the ball slides on the outlane, laughing on your face, saying that your record attempt has failed because that's how it works now, you unlucky bast****.

I don't understand how you can justify something completly unfair which is based on pure (bad)luck and just saying "you just suck at nudging". WTF ? I don't want to have to make brutally violence on the flipper every time ! Poor table, it must have seen things that can't be unseen...
"You don"t hit the slingshot if you don't make mistake" you say. It's wrong : kickbacks usually launch the ball on the slingshot, like a lot of table ! And, thinking about them a little, the slingshots are in the middle of the table, how can you be able to avoid them permanently ?? On Walking Dead, if you take the "FORTIFY" orbit, you MUST raise your flip to avoid a plane and when you raise it, the ball goes on the slingshot after !
So what ? Is it now forbidden to raise your flip to catch a ball after shooting an orbit because the ball will go on the slingshot => outlane ? Forbidden to not brutally slap the table to avoid the outlanes ?

Just because of the realistic physic. The same physic that purposely do that in order to force you to put all your money on it.
In Zen Pinball, we don't pay for each launch on the same table, so they don't need to simulate the unfair things, there is no more money to gain with these.

[surf1der]

@Mammouth, I get it. You and many of the French guys don't like the more active slingshots. You like to twist our words when we use the word "realistic" to mean "unfair" when we actually mean more difficult. If there is no randomness in tables they become boring marathon games that last hours and hours. You might like marathon games but I think they are dull and predictable. And just because we want some more "realism" to increase the difficulty doesn't mean we necessarily want complete "realism" like your examples in your other post of house balls and steep ramps or weak flippers (which are usually caused by a worn out solenoid from a machine that hasn't been well-maintained). By the way, many of the more modern machines have short ball saves to prevent house balls.

And yes, if you nudge three times quickly you will tilt. However, unlike real machines, Zen tables have tilt warnings that reset. I'm not sure if you are saying you want unlimited nudging to make the game even easier? I was merely pointing out that a well-timed nudge would have likely saved the ball in most of those cases. If you don't want to tilt just trap the ball for 10-15 seconds to let the tilt warnings reset.

Another example of where I would like to see more "realism" in regards to increased difficulty which you would probably consider "unfair" is pop bumpers. Most real tables you want to avoid the pop bumpers because they are dangerous and lead to drains. I would like to see this more on Zen tables. As it stands now, pop bumpers on Zen tables are usually in nice enclosed regions that never lead to drains. I equate the randomness that pop bumpers and slingshots provide with increased difficulty and a more exciting game, not unfairness.

[blazergamer]

I also have an issue with the super reactive slingshots. Seems that every time the ball hits them, it flies off like it was shot out of a cannon !

[Mammouth]

@surf1der Not all of the members of the LUP's Club are against the strong slingshots. A poll has been made and it's 55%/45% against the slingshots. The majority isn't large.

A boring marathon game happened when the flow of the table is not good or missions are too similar, when the way to break a record is to spam something and forget 80% of the rest of the table.
For the first exemple, i will say that Paranormal is the best example. So boring that i just want to lose my balls to end the game.
For the second exemple, V12 with spamming ramps, Civil War with the right hole spam, A New Hope and Dark Vador with the spam multiball, Super Football League where you just need to make combos to remove the defenders and score the goal after.

But marathon games can be fun : X-Men needs you to complete all missions in order to gain extra-ball and the flow is non stop, the diversity of the missions in Infinity Gauntlet is very good and you can make a marathon without being bored. Others tables where a marathon is fun are Guardians of the Galaxy, South Park Super Sweety, Fantastic Four, Star Fighter Assault, Blade (very punishing table), Han Solo. I think CastleStorm can be a good marathon game too.
When i score the 4 billions on Infinity Gauntlet to won the tournament in 2012, my game was "only" 5 hours long. Is that a marathon ? When i play Europa Universalis 4 or Civilization, i can be the whole day on the game. And if someone doesn't like marathon game, there is a save session now. He can stop and resume later. (But i try to not use this option, because when i resume, i always lose my game 20 minutes after).
Yes, i confess, i love making a marathon on X-Men because the flow of the table is perfect and it's very rewarding.

With a too random table like Wild West Rampage, the best way to make a good score is to launch the multiball again and again because it's the only safe way to lose "balls" without loosing your ball (if you know what i mean).

[Trynyty]

Sign me up for hating the death spitters.

I'm an amateur. I like learning the games, and I totally consider nudging cheating. In my day, people were thrown out of the arcade for hitting the tables.

I didn't even know that you could nudge up until I read it here.

[deep]

Sign me up for hating the death spitters.

I'm an amateur. I like learning the games, and I totally consider nudging cheating. In my day, people were thrown out of the arcade for hitting the tables.

I didn't even know that you could nudge up until I read it here.

The same was the case in my childhood in arcades but I can tell you it is recommended and totally normal to use nudging even on IRL tables. Even a slight nudge can save the ball. Why would be nudging cheating? Here is a video about the basics of nudging, but you can find tons of others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-G0ZHaKWY

The manufacturers invented the TILT mechanism against the overuse of nudging which is there in our game too, so you can't just nudge all the time.

[Trynyty]

The same was the case in my childhood in arcades but I can tell you it is recommended and totally normal to use nudging even on IRL tables. Even a slight nudge can save the ball. Why would be nudging cheating? Here is a video about the basics of nudging, but you can find tons of others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-G0ZHaKWY

The manufacturers invented the TILT mechanism against the overuse of nudging which is there in our game too, so you can't just nudge all the time.

Ugh, I have 42 years of "not hitting the machine" to fight against now.