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  • Brianvgplayer
    replied
    Originally posted by Evolve or die View Post
    nup. i swear the app is waaay more floatier than the real thing judging by that video and a few others i just watched. Try a hard catch on the app and that ball will floaty bounce all the way up to the drop targets. the real thing definitely has a weightier feel.
    The app seemed a lot less floaty compared to earlier PHOF collections to me and more like real machines. The bounce does seem to be a bit higher than it should be (hard to tell becuase the ball doesn't bounce off the flippers much in the video), but the ball speed and angles look dead on to me. Black rubbers, as used in Pinball Arcade, should be less bouncy than reds, as used in the video, but Pinball Arcade seems more bouncy. I wouldn't call the physics floaty, though.

    Edit: Watched another video with black rubbers on TOM and the ball bounce seems close to Pinball Arcade. It's hard to tell, but the ball can get fast on TOM. But with the red rubber videos, the ones I have seen had the player using the flippers without letting the ball bounce much.
    Last edited by Brianvgplayer; 02-27-2012, 10:50 PM.

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  • Evolve or die
    replied
    Originally posted by Coffee_n_Donuts View Post
    Yeah it looks like they pretty much nailed it!

    I think the problem with a lot of this physics and ball speed talk, is that different tables have different inclines and some are not as steep as others. Some give you that floaty feeling while others are really fast and feel much heavier.
    nup. i swear the app is waaay more floatier than the real thing judging by that video and a few others i just watched. Try a hard catch on the app and that ball will floaty bounce all the way up to the drop targets. the real thing definitely has a weightier feel.

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  • Coffee_n_Donuts
    replied
    Originally posted by Brianvgplayer View Post
    I'm no expert on phsyics, but the phsyics and ball speed for TOM in Pinball Arcade looks similar to this video to me.
    Yeah it looks like they pretty much nailed it!

    I think the problem with a lot of this physics and ball speed talk, is that different tables have different inclines and some are not as steep as others. Some give you that floaty feeling while others are really fast and feel much heavier.

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  • Brianvgplayer
    replied
    I'm no expert on phsyics, but the phsyics and ball speed for TOM in Pinball Arcade looks similar to this video to me.

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  • Nautilus the 1st
    replied
    "Whoever said you can't drop catch in PA is wrong. You can do it, it's just not easy. I've done it, and it feels amazingly rewarding. "

    On a real table it is much easier

    How did you notice that people who complain about the physics of PA don't play pinball. Do we know eachother?

    The physics on ripley and TOTAN are better than on TOM, on TOM the ball is not heavy enough.

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  • robotwars
    replied
    PA clearly has better physics in terms of simulation. Zen feels like pinball on rails. There's basically only 2 things I like more about Zen, and that's the graphics and custom tables.

    Whoever said you can't drop catch in PA is wrong. You can do it, it's just not easy. I've done it, and it feels amazingly rewarding.

    I've noticed people that complain or criticize ball weight generally don't play real pinball and are going by what they "think" it should be. However, when you play real pinball you quickly realize.. oh wow I thought it would be so much heavier, and it's not. PA has the weight and physics down pat.

    I enjoy both, and they have their places. They're different which is actually a good thing. If Zen had a better frame rate on ipad1, I'd probably play it a lot more.

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  • yzrider926
    replied
    I like both apps, haven't put much time on the ios version of pinball arcade, but have logged some time on the PS3 with the Williams Collection.

    I think the physics is more realistic with Far Sights games. I don't know why but Zen's tables don't seem to have the randomness you would experience playing a real machine.

    I noticed this after playing the Zen tables for a few hours and then firing up one of my machines and it was immediately noticeable how much easier it is to keep the ball in play on a Zen table. I realize nothing will ever be able to properly emulate play on a real machine, but do think Far Sight has done a better job at it then Zen has currently.

    That being said I do like Zen's tables, their original and the rules seem to be well done. I can also appreciate Far Sight for bringing tables that you would see out on location, haha, or at someone's house, to consoles and ios devices. It's a good way to check out a game without playing it, or simply being able to play a game without having access to one. Can't wait for MM and AFM to make its way on there.

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  • Nautilus the 1st
    replied
    I am talking about TOM. When i talk about the ruleset i do not mean the explanations btw

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  • surf1der
    replied
    @Nautilus: What table are you specifically talking about? I have played a lot of Arabian Nights and Black Hole. Both tables seem to have realistic backhand shots to me. TOTAN's flippers barely extend beyond the horizontal axis of the playfield. Therefore you will not get a lot of left side action from a left flipper shot and vice versa, particularly starting from a static flipper trap. Black Hole the flippers come up a bit more so you can get more backhand action. I think the physics are pretty good. I have noticed some weird stuff though. When I have a trapped ball in the flipper and i let go to make an aimed shot the ball sometimes accelerates really fast down the flipper. It goes so fast that it surprises me and I don't even have time to react to hit the flipper again before the ball drains. Sometimes the ball rebounds at strange angles off certain parts of the table. These are rare issues but can be frustrating sometimes.

    I agree with you that there table manuals are excellent, much better than zen's. Zen, I hope you are taking notes. The problem with Zen's manual is that, for example, it will tell you how to do a mission but it includes everything in that mission on a single page so it can get confusing about which shots will activate a mission versus which shots are needed to complete are modify a mission. For example, one of Ymir missions on the Thor table he tries to freeze you and you can "warm up" (i.e. get more time to complete the mission) my hitting the "spinner." I thought this was the spinner in front of the right orbit but it was the spinner that looks like a water wheel on the diverted serpent ramp. A separate screen shot showing just this part of the mission would have been helpful.

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  • Nautilus the 1st
    replied
    No, I mean that when doing for example a backhand shot with the left flipper the ball should go well, the left. It ends up somewhere in the middle if the field instead.

    In reality, isn't the angle of the flippers adjustable, I played the same machines in different gamerooms and the angle can differ a lot.

    Also, I'm not talking about a death trap catch, but about a drop catch.

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  • Evolve or die
    replied
    Ripleys is great, TOTAN ok, but TOM is floaty as all hell. Now I know they tweak the physics of every aspect of their tables - which I don't quite understand, are they talking just shape and elevation, or specific gravities??? - bu I don't get how TOM can be so floaty in comparison. Is the ball lighter than the others? I know they tweak it to the reconditioned machine they have in their office. And TOM and TOTAN are both JP designed, but one is Bally and one Williams. Curious to know why the real tables are then so different.

    And notice that I didn't say player enjoyment wasn't important, just secondary to the main business of making money. Of course it's important, otherwise ppl won't play it. But if pat lawlor is saying it as fact, then i'll take it as that.

    Zen's flippers are angled higher than normal, making it easier to catch the ball. Try it on pinball arcade and you'll understand more. I haven't really tried many backhand shots yet on that yet. It's hard to get the ball to run up the flipper at the right speed - or is that what you mean, nautilus?

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  • Nautilus the 1st
    replied
    Ok, I will have to adjust my opinion somewhat. I played several games now on the TOM and I'm getting use to it, getting also decent scores. I played real tables extensively back in the 90s, on a reasonable level. Anyway. The angles are indeed not off, although for backhand shots they are(they are basically not really possible). I still feel the ball lacks some weight, very noticeable when doing bounce passes. Also, a drop catch is not really possible which is a pity. But all in all the physics are good, would just be nice to be able to do all the fancy ball controls. Graphics could be better on my ipad2. But boy, the rulesets are so much better than the ones of Zen IMHO, starting several modes at once is no problem, ignoring modes in favour of other tactics, no problem. Scoring really big with multiballs, yes sir!

    I will not get bored for a while with pinball arcade and I'm looking forward to the future tables.

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  • Brianvgplayer
    replied
    I'm surprised with some of the complaints about The Pinball Arcade. I found the physics to be much less floaty than Pinball Hall of Fame and weightier than Zen's, so I don't know where the moonball thing is coming from. Aside from Ripley's (which has issues on older iOS devices), I found the physics to be more realistic than in PHOF (and I felt the Williams PHOF for Xbox already improved some aspects from previous PHOF versions). They still aren't perfect, but I can't think of a single video pinball with perfect physics (and I love Zen's physics too).

    I'm not sure where you are coming from with the ball angles. I have no problem with aiming in either (and both have purposely tough shots. Iron Man on the PS3 and XBox 360 versions is a good example) and found The Pinball Hall of Fame's angles to be much better than previous PHOF collections, especially the PS2 Gottlieb collection. While the quarter eater thing is probably true, I highly doubt the machines were designed only to be quarter eaters, considering that part of the reason many machines are successful is due to quality of the design and play.

    I love both fantasy and realistic pinball. I love Zen Pinball/Pinball FX2, Kirby's Pinball Land, Revenge of the Gator, Rock 'n Ball, and even some pre NES pinball. Even in older games, I found physics that work well, but while newer hardware allows for more advanced physics, I still see things in older games that are done better than later ones and plenty of games that play well despite being older video pinball games. I found games don't need perfect physics to be enjoyable and found games with both extremely realistic physics and even some games like 2600 video pinball (where the flippers have little control over the ball) and the standalone 70s video pinball (pong physics, but more controllable than 2600 video pinball) to be both playable and fun.
    Last edited by Brianvgplayer; 02-15-2012, 06:22 AM.

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  • Evolve or die
    replied
    Originally posted by surf1der View Post
    If they get game center support, i will be extremely happy. I refuse to use facebook. @ evolve: From what you said, it sounds like they are going to have a single leaderboard for all platforms. Is that true? That would definitely be tough against xbox players. Though i think nudging is not a big factor because it is more realistic and subtler on Farsight tables (when it works) as opposed to zen where you can you pull off a consistent nudge every time (at least on the youtube videos i've seem).

    As for the comments comparing zen vs farsight ball physics, i think farsight has the more realistic physics. Not that more realistic equates to more fun. If farsight has "moon" ball physics, then zen has "jupiter" physics. On real pinball machines it is harder to trap balls and slingshots and bumpers accelerate the ball much more quickly then zen's.

    Zen's tables are definitely easier than real pinball tables but that is just by design. Flippers are closer together, ball saves last longer, easy to get kickbacks, slingshots rarely eject the balls to outlanes. And nautilus thought the aiming angles are off on farsight. The aren't. It's because the flippers don't angle up as high as zen tables (just like real tables) so coming from playing zen to playing farsight it seems like aiming might be off.
    you mean easier for xbox users, surely? A consistent button for them (as in the zen youtube vids where they consistently nudge pass between flippers - drives me insane watching those, not that it's too hard to get it to the other by other means, just not as quickly)

    As for the rest, re: physics I've been pondering this over the weekend, especially after reading the 'fantasy pinball' putdown directed at Zen on Pinball Arcade's facebook page by a few different users. And wondering what exactly that term means and the future of digital pinball.

    (this is probably going to develop into another post somewhere on this forum - but here's the main gist)

    I was watching "Tilt: Battle to save pinball" about Williams going down the drain, and Pat Lawlor is in it (and I think he says it in the "Special: When Lit" doco, too). He says that the number one priority and thing you have to remember is that at the end of the day, a pinball machine is designed to put money in the pocket of the operator. Thus the machine is designed for you to fail, quickly. Hard to catch balls, wider center drain, crazy ass bumpers and slingshots, failed ramps leading to drains, sadistic outlanes (I'm looking at you, Popadiuk and TOTAN). All of that shit is SPECIFICALLY designed to keep the operators happy and the quarters coming. They're the ones (historically) who buy the machines in the first place, after all. Basically, player enjoyment comes second place. Still important, but business is business.

    So, now take that primary motivation out of the equation COMPLETELY. What happens? Luckily we get something like Zen. Flippers closer together, better angles on flippers, no moonball bumping around. Not having played a real machine in about a year, I was quite surprised playing Pinball Arcade after so much Zen, and rediscovering everything that sucks about pinball. And I think Zen is the way forward virtually. As you said, it's more enjoyable. Sure, having it exactly like real pinball makes it harder, but I hardly think that Zen is easy. There's still a frustration level when you drain, and sense of achievement when you score big - precisely because the frustration is still there. So to me it's the right level of difficulty.

    Some don't like that, that's OK. I feel it's fair as there's so much you don't have access to on a virtual table - tactile feeling, half switches on flippers, real nudging, smaller playfield - that we need the 'handicap' to level things and make it as enjoyable as RL pinball.

    So its hard to hear 'fantasy' pinball used derogatively, as I dont feel there's anything wrong with the way Zen have coded things. In fact I think the future of pinball lies in the way they are doing it - maybe even REAL LIFE pinball. As someone said in the "get real designers to do Zen tables" thread somewhere around here, maybe it should be the other way round, as the 'real' designers saw their industry die under their watch. And with the amount of new tables going straight to collectors, and not many operators put a table in to actually MAKE money, instead for more a 'cool' factor, why not have flippers closer, higher-angled and other tricks that favor the former secondary player satisfaction over a machine's ability to suck money out of people. I'm not sure if Zen have specifically thought of this reasoning, but it shows in the way they approach table design, and I for one love it.

    As long as they give me swipe nudging on my ipad

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  • surf1der
    replied
    If they get game center support, i will be extremely happy. I refuse to use facebook. @ evolve: From what you said, it sounds like they are going to have a single leaderboard for all platforms. Is that true? That would definitely be tough against xbox players. Though i think nudging is not a big factor because it is more realistic and subtler on Farsight tables (when it works) as opposed to zen where you can you pull off a consistent nudge every time (at least on the youtube videos i've seem).

    As for the comments comparing zen vs farsight ball physics, i think farsight has the more realistic physics. Not that more realistic equates to more fun. If farsight has "moon" ball physics, then zen has "jupiter" physics. On real pinball machines it is harder to trap balls and slingshots and bumpers accelerate the ball much more quickly then zen's.

    Zen's tables are definitely easier than real pinball tables but that is just by design. Flippers are closer together, ball saves last longer, easy to get kickbacks, slingshots rarely eject the balls to outlanes. And nautilus thought the aiming angles are off on farsight. The aren't. It's because the flippers don't angle up as high as zen tables (just like real tables) so coming from playing zen to playing farsight it seems like aiming might be off.

    Leave a comment:

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