Pinball arcade < Zen

[Evolve or die]

Just downloaded TOM and TOTAN. The graphics are pretty Sucky, hard to see table art and The ramps in Arabian. Some suspect physics. All in all I prefer zen at the moment. Though it is nice to play my beloved Theatre of Magic (though it is pretty floaty)

Now fix nudging!!!!! It could be a game changer. Swipe it, baby!!!!

[surf1der]

I played arabian nights and thought is was pretty solid. I haven't played on a real pinball machine in probably a decade but the physics felt pretty good. That being said i think i like zen's physics a bit better. I also agree that zen's graphics are better but at the cost of performance. I have issues with dropping framerates and crashes on zen tables but have had no issues with TOTAN after a couple hours of gameplay. I want to get ToM but $4 seems pricey for a single ios table, even considering licensing fees. Though, I will fork over the dough for Twilight Zone, Gun n Roses, or Attack from Mars. Sunk a lot change into those machines when i was in high school. I agree that nudging is terrible on both zen and farsight tables.

[Coffee_n_Donuts]

I really like both games. Zen is what I call fantasy pinball and it's undoubtedly the best pinball game around. However, Pinball Arcade is a pure simulation and I've gotta say, Arabian Nights and Theatre of Magic are pretty damn close to the original tables. The only thing that's occasionally off is the physics but surely it won't be long before its spot on. Real tables and fantasy tables are different, very different.

Hopefully this competition will increase both the quality of tables released by both Zen and Farsight and maybe even speed up the release schedule. For now though, I'm happily playing both games and there is definitely room on my iOS devices for both of them to live happily ever after!

Pinball is here to stay!!!

[Evolve or die]

Urrgh, someone said guns'n'roses. That table hated me with a passion. I never could get the hang of the top right field.

I looking forward to medieval madness, which I've never played, but is one of the top rated tables of all time.

[Evolve or die]

OMG, I just played Ripleys. Now the physics on that are closest to zen. A damn good table, from pat lawlor. Probably the most complicated rule set ever. It's an ADHD thrill ride.

The graphics suck still. Can hardly read any of he text on the table, and there's a lot.

[Nautilus the 1st]

Indeed, the physics seem better on totan and ripleys than on tom. Still, the ball is lacking weight and the angles of shooting are off imho. The graphics are not good enough as well. Does not look good on my ipad2.

Btw, those anti bot questions are driving me crazy

[surf1der]

Finally broke a 100 M on TOTAN. Unfortunately, it only has facebook integration to post scores to leaderboards. That is the biggest flaw in the game right now. They need to use their own leaderboard system or use game center. Though, i would like zen to use game center as well.

I played the trial version of Ripley's and it plays faster than i remember. Still fun. I'll probably get it. The graphics are indeed pretty crappy. I've noticed that the upper playfield is entirely unreadable unless you knock the ball up there and have the camera mode "chasing" the ball, which i usually don't because i prefer the fixed camera. And i thoght they sacrificed on graphics for improved performance but I have noticed some slight drops in framerate, though not as bad as zen can be on my ipad1. Spending more time with game the physics overall are pretty good but there are times when it seems off and i have noticed a few bugs pop up here and there. It seems like the app is doing pretty well so i hope it will get some post release support.

Have you tried nudging using the accelerometers? Just tapping the ipad for flipper shots is enough to tilt. And swiping for nudging in the upper part of the ipad is not practical and hard to consistently use. Nudging is completely broken on farsight's tables for ios and i would say zen's nudging is partially broken, since i can now do an upward nudge for death saves fairly consistently but lateral nudges still tilt or screw up orientation.

[Evolve or die]

Indeed, the physics seem better on totan and ripleys than on tom. Still, the ball is lacking weight and the angles of shooting are off imho. The graphics are not good enough as well. Does not look good on my ipad2.

Btw, those anti bot questions are driving me crazy

Ideas, at least zen are customizing the questions and adding some humor. Even though faucet is such an American word. Tap!!!!!!

[shogun00]

Even though faucet is such an American word. Tap!!!!!!

Not quite! The origin of the word "faucet" came from Middle English (1350 - 1400), which means some European countries (such as UK and Hungary) use the term.

On a side note, faucet is only used in certain areas of the US. The other parts call it a "spigot".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faucet

[Evolve or die]

Finally broke a 100 M on TOTAN. Unfortunately, it only has facebook integration to post scores to leaderboards. That is the biggest flaw in the game right now. They need to use their own leaderboard system or use game center. Though, i would like zen to use game center as well.

Have you tried nudging using the accelerometers? Just tapping the ipad for flipper shots is enough to tilt. And swiping for nudging in the upper part of the ipad is not practical and hard to consistently use. Nudging is completely broken on farsight's tables for ios and i would say zen's nudging is partially broken, since i can now do an upward nudge for death saves fairly consistently but lateral nudges still tilt or screw up orientation.

I think they are planning GC support. Though if they don't fix nudging its going to be one sided against the consoles on fb leader boards. Imagine if we went against xbox360 zen players. They nudge at will without throwing their tv around the room.

[surf1der]

If they get game center support, i will be extremely happy. I refuse to use facebook. @ evolve: From what you said, it sounds like they are going to have a single leaderboard for all platforms. Is that true? That would definitely be tough against xbox players. Though i think nudging is not a big factor because it is more realistic and subtler on Farsight tables (when it works) as opposed to zen where you can you pull off a consistent nudge every time (at least on the youtube videos i've seem).

As for the comments comparing zen vs farsight ball physics, i think farsight has the more realistic physics. Not that more realistic equates to more fun. If farsight has "moon" ball physics, then zen has "jupiter" physics. On real pinball machines it is harder to trap balls and slingshots and bumpers accelerate the ball much more quickly then zen's.

Zen's tables are definitely easier than real pinball tables but that is just by design. Flippers are closer together, ball saves last longer, easy to get kickbacks, slingshots rarely eject the balls to outlanes. And nautilus thought the aiming angles are off on farsight. The aren't. It's because the flippers don't angle up as high as zen tables (just like real tables) so coming from playing zen to playing farsight it seems like aiming might be off.

[Evolve or die]

If they get game center support, i will be extremely happy. I refuse to use facebook. @ evolve: From what you said, it sounds like they are going to have a single leaderboard for all platforms. Is that true? That would definitely be tough against xbox players. Though i think nudging is not a big factor because it is more realistic and subtler on Farsight tables (when it works) as opposed to zen where you can you pull off a consistent nudge every time (at least on the youtube videos i've seem).

As for the comments comparing zen vs farsight ball physics, i think farsight has the more realistic physics. Not that more realistic equates to more fun. If farsight has "moon" ball physics, then zen has "jupiter" physics. On real pinball machines it is harder to trap balls and slingshots and bumpers accelerate the ball much more quickly then zen's.

Zen's tables are definitely easier than real pinball tables but that is just by design. Flippers are closer together, ball saves last longer, easy to get kickbacks, slingshots rarely eject the balls to outlanes. And nautilus thought the aiming angles are off on farsight. The aren't. It's because the flippers don't angle up as high as zen tables (just like real tables) so coming from playing zen to playing farsight it seems like aiming might be off.

you mean easier for xbox users, surely? A consistent button for them (as in the zen youtube vids where they consistently nudge pass between flippers - drives me insane watching those, not that it's too hard to get it to the other by other means, just not as quickly)

As for the rest, re: physics I've been pondering this over the weekend, especially after reading the 'fantasy pinball' putdown directed at Zen on Pinball Arcade's facebook page by a few different users. And wondering what exactly that term means and the future of digital pinball.

(this is probably going to develop into another post somewhere on this forum - but here's the main gist)

I was watching "Tilt: Battle to save pinball" about Williams going down the drain, and Pat Lawlor is in it (and I think he says it in the "Special: When Lit" doco, too). He says that the number one priority and thing you have to remember is that at the end of the day, a pinball machine is designed to put money in the pocket of the operator. Thus the machine is designed for you to fail, quickly. Hard to catch balls, wider center drain, crazy ass bumpers and slingshots, failed ramps leading to drains, sadistic outlanes (I'm looking at you, Popadiuk and TOTAN). All of that shit is SPECIFICALLY designed to keep the operators happy and the quarters coming. They're the ones (historically) who buy the machines in the first place, after all. Basically, player enjoyment comes second place. Still important, but business is business.

So, now take that primary motivation out of the equation COMPLETELY. What happens? Luckily we get something like Zen. Flippers closer together, better angles on flippers, no moonball bumping around. Not having played a real machine in about a year, I was quite surprised playing Pinball Arcade after so much Zen, and rediscovering everything that sucks about pinball. And I think Zen is the way forward virtually. As you said, it's more enjoyable. Sure, having it exactly like real pinball makes it harder, but I hardly think that Zen is easy. There's still a frustration level when you drain, and sense of achievement when you score big - precisely because the frustration is still there. So to me it's the right level of difficulty.

Some don't like that, that's OK. I feel it's fair as there's so much you don't have access to on a virtual table - tactile feeling, half switches on flippers, real nudging, smaller playfield - that we need the 'handicap' to level things and make it as enjoyable as RL pinball.

So its hard to hear 'fantasy' pinball used derogatively, as I dont feel there's anything wrong with the way Zen have coded things. In fact I think the future of pinball lies in the way they are doing it - maybe even REAL LIFE pinball. As someone said in the "get real designers to do Zen tables" thread somewhere around here, maybe it should be the other way round, as the 'real' designers saw their industry die under their watch. And with the amount of new tables going straight to collectors, and not many operators put a table in to actually MAKE money, instead for more a 'cool' factor, why not have flippers closer, higher-angled and other tricks that favor the former secondary player satisfaction over a machine's ability to suck money out of people. I'm not sure if Zen have specifically thought of this reasoning, but it shows in the way they approach table design, and I for one love it.

As long as they give me swipe nudging on my ipad

[Brianvgplayer]

I'm surprised with some of the complaints about The Pinball Arcade. I found the physics to be much less floaty than Pinball Hall of Fame and weightier than Zen's, so I don't know where the moonball thing is coming from. Aside from Ripley's (which has issues on older iOS devices), I found the physics to be more realistic than in PHOF (and I felt the Williams PHOF for Xbox already improved some aspects from previous PHOF versions). They still aren't perfect, but I can't think of a single video pinball with perfect physics (and I love Zen's physics too).

I'm not sure where you are coming from with the ball angles. I have no problem with aiming in either (and both have purposely tough shots. Iron Man on the PS3 and XBox 360 versions is a good example) and found The Pinball Hall of Fame's angles to be much better than previous PHOF collections, especially the PS2 Gottlieb collection. While the quarter eater thing is probably true, I highly doubt the machines were designed only to be quarter eaters, considering that part of the reason many machines are successful is due to quality of the design and play.

I love both fantasy and realistic pinball. I love Zen Pinball/Pinball FX2, Kirby's Pinball Land, Revenge of the Gator, Rock 'n Ball, and even some pre NES pinball. Even in older games, I found physics that work well, but while newer hardware allows for more advanced physics, I still see things in older games that are done better than later ones and plenty of games that play well despite being older video pinball games. I found games don't need perfect physics to be enjoyable and found games with both extremely realistic physics and even some games like 2600 video pinball (where the flippers have little control over the ball) and the standalone 70s video pinball (pong physics, but more controllable than 2600 video pinball) to be both playable and fun.

[Nautilus the 1st]

Ok, I will have to adjust my opinion somewhat. I played several games now on the TOM and I'm getting use to it, getting also decent scores. I played real tables extensively back in the 90s, on a reasonable level. Anyway. The angles are indeed not off, although for backhand shots they are(they are basically not really possible). I still feel the ball lacks some weight, very noticeable when doing bounce passes. Also, a drop catch is not really possible which is a pity. But all in all the physics are good, would just be nice to be able to do all the fancy ball controls. Graphics could be better on my ipad2. But boy, the rulesets are so much better than the ones of Zen IMHO, starting several modes at once is no problem, ignoring modes in favour of other tactics, no problem. Scoring really big with multiballs, yes sir!

I will not get bored for a while with pinball arcade and I'm looking forward to the future tables.

[Evolve or die]

Ripleys is great, TOTAN ok, but TOM is floaty as all hell. Now I know they tweak the physics of every aspect of their tables - which I don't quite understand, are they talking just shape and elevation, or specific gravities??? - bu I don't get how TOM can be so floaty in comparison. Is the ball lighter than the others? I know they tweak it to the reconditioned machine they have in their office. And TOM and TOTAN are both JP designed, but one is Bally and one Williams. Curious to know why the real tables are then so different.

And notice that I didn't say player enjoyment wasn't important, just secondary to the main business of making money. Of course it's important, otherwise ppl won't play it. But if pat lawlor is saying it as fact, then i'll take it as that.

Zen's flippers are angled higher than normal, making it easier to catch the ball. Try it on pinball arcade and you'll understand more. I haven't really tried many backhand shots yet on that yet. It's hard to get the ball to run up the flipper at the right speed - or is that what you mean, nautilus?