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Thread: ROME Table - 10M Romulus ??

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Default ROME Table - 10M Romulus ??

    Sorry but this is a joke... winning Romulus Multiball is pretty super hard to achieve (lighting the letters is only to activate the mode !), so hard that it justifies to pursue this goal in parallel with completing missions. This was the whole thing. 10M is completely underrated, no one will ever bother to accomplish this for a few millions. I really do not understand this choice ! This is just a bad one, the table lost its soul. Nothing more to say.

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    Table Designer deep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Sorry but this is a joke... winning Romulus Multiball is pretty super hard to achieve (lighting the letters is only to activate the mode !), so hard that it justifies to pursue this goal in parallel with completing missions. This was the whole thing. 10M is completely underrated, no one will ever bother to accomplish this for a few millions. I really do not understand this choice ! This is just a bad one, the table lost its soul. Nothing more to say.
    You just wrote the point. This was the only thing on the table that worth spamming. A pinball table that have one single thing to worth aim for is a bad table and we don't want that.

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    Junior Member Deco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    ...A pinball table that have one single thing to worth aim for is a bad table and we don't want that.
    Thats a nice view. Thx

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    You just wrote the point. This was the only thing on the table that worth spamming. A pinball table that have one single thing to worth aim for is a bad table and we don't want that.
    I agree wholeheartedly. High scores should come from playing the table as a whole e.g. play through modes and wizard mode, rather than spamming a certain mode.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly. High scores should come from playing the table as a whole e.g. play through modes and wizard mode, rather than spamming a certain mode.
    Look, I totally understand your point, I'm not saying you shouldn't have lowered it at all. But talking about good and bad tables, I think a good table is a table where the reward is proportionate to the efforts. If you only get a few M after lighting all the letters, then shooting the locked ball several times, then shooting the statue from the left side, well... you better just shoot the central hole 5 times during south garrison and you get 10M. Romulus becomes absurd, and this is a great flaw, to my mind.

    Please realize the Romulus initial bonus is also a countdown. If it starts at 10M, it becomes nearly impossible, and if you are good and manage to do it, the countdown will be at 2 or 3M unless you know how to raise it, which is also something hard to achieve.

    Romulus was designed to be hard, now we don't understand any more why it is so hard since we only get a few M. It makes this part of the table totally illogical, which is, in my opinion, a big flaw : again, no one will ever bother to complete Romulus, it's just far too risky for what you get. So, in a way, you are doing the opposite of what you want to achieve, making things even more unbalanced, just the other way around.

    So, while I'm not saying it was completely absurd to lower this bonus, I think 10M is way too low, something like 30-40M would be sensible - considering most of the time, the time you take to complete it will lower the bonus and give you like 20M in the end. I'm not a super professional pinball player, and the few times I was successful at completing Romulus, I got like 90M or less...

    I love Rome and I always thought trying to trigger and win Romulus was a side quest to the missions, seeing it at 10M makes me hate what you did with this table, your 10M tweak is just as excessive as 110M, so, why falling into the same faults we are criticizing ? why not go for the middle ground ?
    Last edited by Vincent; 09-27-2017 at 12:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    So, while I'm not saying it was completely absurd to lower this bonus, I think 10M is way too low, something like 30-40M would be sensible - considering most of the time, the time you take to complete it will lower the bonus and give you like 20M in the end. I'm not a super professional pinball player, and the few times I was successful at completing Romulus, I got like 90M or less...

    I love Rome and I always thought trying to trigger and win Romulus was a side quest to the missions, seeing it at 10M makes me hate what you did with this table, your 10M tweak is just as excessive as 110M, so, why falling into the same faults we are criticizing ? why not go for the middle ground ?
    This whole table was designed to be hard I can't honestly remember how I approached Rome when I last played it. I do remember though that beating the Wizard mode was a really tough ask and I only managed to do it once or twice and you didn't even have to finish each of the Garrison main missions to get to the Wizard mode. If they really want to make it that only the top players get the high scores, they should make it that you have to complete each of the 6 Garrison missions before you can reach the wizard mode and not just finish any 6 missions, even if it is the same one.

    I'm still happy with Romulus, as a side quest, scoring lower or the same as a main mission. Reaching the Wizard mode should should be your main goal for getting a big score. As soon as there is a mode that you can spam on a table, it takes all the fun out of it for me because then it means the person who is willing to put the most hours into it is going to get the high score rather than the player that has best mastered the table.
    Last edited by Cloda; 09-27-2017 at 01:41 PM.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    This whole table was designed to be hard I can't honestly remember how I approached Rome when I last played it. I do remember though that beating the Wizard mode was a really tough ask and I only managed to do it once or twice and you didn't even have to finish each of the Garrison main missions to get to the Wizard mode. If they really want to make it that only the top players get the high scores, they should make it that you have to repeat each of the 6 Garrison missions before you can reach the wizard mode and not just finish 6 missions, even if it is the same one.

    I'm still happy with Romulus, as a side quest, scoring lower or the same as a main mission. Reaching the Wizard mode should should be your main goal for getting a big score. As soon as there is a mode that you can spam on a table, it takes all the fun out of it for me because then it means the person who is willing to put the most hours into it is going to get the high score rather than the player that has best mastered the table.
    I couldn't agree more, we are on the same side ! But the player who is good enough to complete Romulus should be awarded accordingly, there are many easy ways to get 10M, Romulus is worth a lot more. Middle ground, please... And again, this is a countdown, 10M means you get... no time !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I couldn't agree more, we are on the same side ! But the player who is good enough to complete Romulus should be awarded accordingly, there are many easy ways to get 10M, Romulus is worth a lot more. Middle ground, please... And again, this is a countdown, 10M means you get... no time !
    Sorry, that is why I quoted that section of your post in my previous post I meant to say that I do agree that they could have made it a proportionally higher reward.

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    Table Designer deep's Avatar
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    All right I hear you guys. I think it wouldn't be that bad to add a bit to the jackpot. Would 25M be okay for start, and an additional 1M for all the lane hits instead of couple hundred K points? I can now score a 40+ M jackpot easily. Would this be okay?

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Sounds awesome. And the effect of shooting the small flipper orbit will still remain the same, right ? i.e. raise the jackpot, same effect as in Western Garrison I guess...

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    Table Designer deep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Sounds awesome. And the effect of shooting the small flipper orbit will still remain the same, right ? i.e. raise the jackpot, same effect as in Western Garrison I guess...
    Remains yes, and all the other lanes do this too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    All right I hear you guys. I think it wouldn't be that bad to add a bit to the jackpot. Would 25M be okay for start, and an additional 1M for all the lane hits instead of couple hundred K points? I can now score a 40+ M jackpot easily. Would this be okay?
    I haven't played the table in quite a while so can't remember everything that well, but that sounds great to me. Thank you for paying attention to our discussion and for your input.

    I don't have the time anymore to be so involved as I used to be, but I'm still a keen supporter and look forward to a time when I'm in a better position to play all the tables that you have released over the last three years or so that I haven't had a chance to really touch (even though I still buy all the table as soon as they are available ;-)). I haven't found a table yet that I enjoy as much as Fantastic Four and Ms. Splosion Man is brilliant even though it doesn't have the longevity of Fantastic Four for me.

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    @deep, I haven't played Rome in a long time so I won't comment on the Romulus mode. But you seem quick to change the scoring of the table. Do you guys have a policy about rule set changes, fixing scoring imbalances, and bug fixes, and how these relate to leaderboards? If so, what is the policy? I remember barbie was hesitant to do leaderboard wipes because I believe she got death threats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surf1der View Post
    @deep, I haven't played Rome in a long time so I won't comment on the Romulus mode. But you seem quick to change the scoring of the table. Do you guys have a policy about rule set changes, fixing scoring imbalances, and bug fixes, and how these relate to leaderboards? If so, what is the policy? I remember barbie was hesitant to do leaderboard wipes because I believe she got death threats.
    Now is probably the best time to make changes as FX3 is being released. In a months time it will already be too late

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    Remains yes, and all the other lanes do this too.
    I really think your idea is brilliant and can reconcile both worlds, by forcing the player to earn his jackpot amount. The key for this to work is indeed to add some attractiveness to this mode, since of course it is a bit redundant with what Western G. has to offer : raising a jackpot within a multiball mode...

    The Romulus will have the advantage to start at 25M and allow more bonus (since each ramp will score 1M, not only the small orbit), which will be a rightful compensation for the disadvantage of being much harder to complete (Western jackpot's validations each only requiring a shot into the Romulus hole) ; this is why this initial bonus is absolutely needed, it will act as a "boost" - and the fact that all ramps score 1M will not only prevent the countdown from quickly falling to 0, but also allow the player to actually increase the jackpot while trying to access to the final bust hole, which will maybe add some "juice" (risk) to the stuff... I honestly think this is a nice compromise, and it will really reward players who are good at shooting ramps, which is the whole purpose after all...

    I'd be dying to know what the designer, Tamas Stephen, would say about it - if he's still around - after all, this is his baby...
    Last edited by Vincent; 09-27-2017 at 04:06 PM.

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    Default Not trying to steal Vincents thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    Now is probably the best time to make changes as FX3 is being released. In a months time it will already be too late
    While your in a generous mood Cloda and considering making changes, would you consider while in the 1 ball challenge allowing us to achieve extra balls, which are technically still ball 1? They are not always easy to achieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    While your in a generous mood Cloda and considering making changes, would you consider while in the 1 ball challenge allowing us to achieve extra balls, which are technically still ball 1? They are not always easy to achieve.
    Deep is the person you need to speak to . My opinion is that 1 ball challenge should stay just one ball...

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    Default How about I post a thread and get the communities feelings?

    Most may very well agree with you, but thanks for responding Cloda.

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    Since we are early after release and this change adds to the scores and doesn't take from them, I think it's okay to do this. We don't exactly have a policy for changes, but we don't do many as you may know. Especially if the change would reduce the scores.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    Since we are early after release and this change adds to the scores and doesn't take from them, I think it's okay to do this. We don't exactly have a policy for changes, but we don't do many as you may know. Especially if the change would reduce the scores.
    Yes and this is a kind of cas de force majeure since it can really not stay that way, making one of the major modes useless. Unfortunately I wasn't allowed to enter the beta-testing and had no idea what the new Romulus starting bonus would be, otherwise this discussion would have taken place at an earlier stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    Since we are early after release and this change adds to the scores and doesn't take from them, I think it's okay to do this. We don't exactly have a policy for changes, but we don't do many as you may know. Especially if the change would reduce the scores.
    Was this response directed towards me or Cloda or both Deep?

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    I believe it was directed to surf1der's asking about Romulus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    While your in a generous mood Cloda and considering making changes, would you consider while in the 1 ball challenge allowing us to achieve extra balls, which are technically still ball 1? They are not always easy to achieve.
    The extra balls will remain the same as they are now. There are some bonus scores instead in 1 ball challenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    The extra balls will remain the same as they are now. There are some bonus scores instead in 1 ball challenge.
    The extra scores are already there? I didnt notice, but I appreciate the response deep. I have a different question. I used to love the pop ups in zen pinball 2 stating I was only x amount of points in overtaking someone on my friends list. Is that still in place and Im just overlooking it, or was it removed?

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    Since we are early after release and this change adds to the scores and doesn't take from them, I think it's okay to do this. We don't exactly have a policy for changes, but we don't do many as you may know. Especially if the change would reduce the scores.
    This hasn't been done yet I checked the update, hope this is soon !

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    I am in agreement with deep's take. If you want to compromise, that's great, but ROME is one of the greatest digital tables ever. In terms of atmosphere, etc. It is better when played as a whole than to try to keep getting the massive multiball bonus. Am I the only player that thinks this was a great decision?

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    I think I already gave good arguments. Romulus is hard, if you only get 10M it will become useless, loose its purpose, that's what I'd hate. The middle ground we agreed on seems very reasonable and doesn't deter you from playing the missions at all. What is left of Romulus is nothing compared to Wizard Mode.

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    I agree Vincent, your arguments are sound. I never got the Romulus anyway, although I tried a heck of a lot LOL. I am one of those average players that almost all of the modifications seem to make sense to. The better ones like yourself, I can understand wondering why lol.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    I agree Vincent, your arguments are sound. I never got the Romulus anyway, although I tries a heck of a lot LOL. I am one of those average players that almost all of the modifications seem to make sense to. The better ones like yourself, I can understanding wondering why lol.
    Haha lol, I got it a few times, and when it happens it's such a big joy... I'm kind of grieving

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    Table Designer deep's Avatar
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    Sorry guys please be patient, we need couple days to make sure nobody loses progress with an already ongoing game.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Ok Deep thank you.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    Sorry guys please be patient, we need couple days to make sure nobody loses progress with an already ongoing game.
    So when shall we see the modification ?

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    Hello, hi Vincent,

    It was me who asked deep during the beta to lower the Romulus Jackpot. Because on Pinball FX2 it was abnormally high, and that canceled all the interest of doing something else on this table. And more, with the new system of upgrades (multiball & score boost) this Jackpot could still be multiplied.

    We had agreed on an initial bonus of 10m, but maybe we thought it too quickly (there was many other things to balance), so sorry fot that. If this JP can be increased a little (just a little) and everybody can be happy, that's good.

    However, I wanted to comment what was said : the Southern mission can actually give 10 million, but in several hits (and not in a single shot like the Jackpot Romulus), and for that we must aim 5 times the same best sinkhole to 2m. It is also more risky than the multiball Romulus, this is a one ball mission. And now, with the Multiball upgrade, spamming Southern mission has no longer any interest, the wizard mode will be the best way to earn max of points. That's why I think this table is now more balanced.

    Edit : ah mais je vois que t'es français, il faut que tu viennes faire un tour sur mon forum.
    Last edited by wims_Beta; 10-04-2017 at 10:40 AM.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wims_Beta View Post
    Hello, hi Vincent,

    It was me who asked deep during the beta to lower the Romulus Jackpot. Because on Pinball FX2 it was abnormally high, and that canceled all the interest of doing something else on this table. And more, with the new system of upgrades (multiball & score boost) this Jackpot could still be multiplied.

    We had agreed on an initial bonus of 10m, but maybe we thought it too quickly (there was many other things to balance), so sorry fot that. If this JP can be increased a little (just a little) and everybody can be happy, that's good.

    However, I wanted to comment what was said : the Southern mission can actually give 10 million, but in several hits (and not in a single shot like the Jackpot Romulus), and for that we must aim 5 times the same best sinkhole to 2m. It is also more risky than the multiball Romulus, this is a one ball mission. And now, with the Multiball upgrade, spamming Southern mission has no longer any interest, the wizard mode will be the best way to earn max of points. That's why I think this table is now more balanced.

    Edit : ah mais je vois que t'es français, il faut que tu viennes faire un tour sur mon forum.

    Hi, thank you for your message. I disagree that Romulus is a single-shot, since you first have to hit the locked ball several times. You have to do all of this during a multiball, which, if not risky, is at least far more difficult than with a single ball.

    I think 10M is very underrated. Deep made a reasonable proposal of 25M as an initial bonus, along with easier jackpot increase, which we agreed was a great idea as to reward actual ramp shooting. That way, Romulus is no longer associated with cheap scoring but still remains a very special mode,as intended by the designer : after all, Romulus is the father of Rome, and after his mortal death, he becomes a God (Quirinus), which is symbolized by the "blessing ramp" shot after lighting the letters.

    À bientôt
    Last edited by Vincent; 10-05-2017 at 04:27 PM.

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    On the southern mission too, you have to hit several ramps to spell conquer, like you have to spell romulus for the multiball, but well, 25m is a good compromise.

    Oh and my mistake, the romulus jackpot isn't multiplied by the multiball upgrade, earn it causes the end of the multiball, so at this moment we only have one ball.

    For me the most important thing is that romulus JP wasnt the source of the highest scores anymore. And that's the case, now better things is to clear the table / play wizard mode with the upgrades.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    So Deep, isnt that beautiful ? When is it coming ha ha I'm happy we found a middle ground

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    Good work guys. Rome is one of the greatest tables IMO. I have always done the southern mission FIRST but never twice, I always moved on, and tried my best to get 'em all. So everyone will now be happy with a reduced, but then raised, Romulus

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    Good work guys. Rome is one of the greatest tables IMO. I have always done the southern mission FIRST but never twice, I always moved on, and tried my best to get 'em all. So everyone will now be happy with a reduced, but then raised, Romulus
    Ha ha, Southern is so easy, I keep it for the end, Western is my first choice lol...

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