matchup question
how are the scores in matchup mode calculated? i have the impression that it`s basically pick a easy taget,get the 40 points over and over again,which would give people that can play for 6 or 10 hours a day an advantage over those with less playing time,if that`s the case it is the most pointless tournament ever made in a game.hope somebody can enlighten me.
Last edited by Uwe; 09-28-2017 at 09:27 PM.
I would imagine that as time progresses and things sort themselves out it will be harder to obtain the scores being matched. And then you will start losing points on failed attempts.Originally Posted by Uwe
I agree. It should be limited to 1 - 3 game play attempts per table. I honestly think it should be 1 try per game. You can always practice it before hand on your own time.
Also....why is it timed? Why not have this mode as 1 attempt on 4 different tables. Choose your competitors (as it is now. Good risk reward decision on how strong you feel you are on each game ) easy score, med score or hard score to beat, but you only get 1 attempt on each game in a 3 ball (no free balls) game. No boosters or power ups or anything like that. Just the game with the same basic setting as everyone else you are playing against.
If you like you could have a booster league and a standard league. If you have a booster league, you might as well allow extra balls also.
I originally saw this mode and got excited...then I looked at it and realized it was made by someone that wanted to push "play more, play more, play more, buy all the table, play more, buy, buy, buy, play more" instead of someone that had actually played in a pinball league.
I have to say there is not one new mode in PBFX3 that excites me at all. They are all "play until you win" modes. If you want that...that is fine, but make limited tournament and league modes also. Where if you suck...you suck. Just like real pinball leagues and tournaments...sometimes you are on and sometimes you are off...there are no try agains or re-dos. If you are a bronze 3 level player...you will be playing in bronze 3 until you improve.
This is coming from a 5 year, B level league player (very inconsistent and mediocre) that likes participating and trying to improve.
I agree with everything DugFreez said.when i looked at the matchup ranks today i got knocked down 10 spots just because somebody played longer than me.this is not a skill based mode,it`s a grinding contest.
Matchup mode is completely pointless, please can more people voice this. I'm sorry to say this but these people on the top of the leaderboards need to get a life, it's very sad their repeating the same thing over and over.
i doubt that this will get changed,on this Forum the so called Community Manager only answers when the Game gets praise,critical Posts get ignored.
I totally agree. Grind the same tables for 5 minutes easily beating each for an entire week? And hopefully you will be in the top 20% so that next week they can double the scores and you can still easily beat them? Ya, I got better stuff to do than just do the same thing over and over and over and over again................................unless its sex, and even then you gotta mix it up from time to time.
Before one of you smart guys chime in. There is no 5 minute time limit for sex.
Are 20% grinding though?
Once the leagues get established there may still be merit in the system.
I will wait and see how this goes, although you could be right, I feel the level I will fall at it will be a challenge in itself to get enogh points to be able to beat harder opponents.
I think something that'd fix this somewhat would be to give every player a certain number of tries on each of the four tables (15-20 maybe). That way grinding wouldn't be a factor. Once you're done for the week your score is set. The extra points for dominance would also prevent hundreds of people having the same score in the end. At the moment I'd have to agree with what the others said. In this mode it doesn't matter how good you are just how much you play. Unless the scores you have to get even with the easiest option become A LOT more difficult it will just be about who plays the most.
I agree very much. It's pointless. Just adapt the tournament modes that are played in real life pinball. They are approved to work well otherwise no one would compete in tournaments.
i dont bother with it anymore,but if somebody who makes it to the next level could report back if it`s a different challenge or the same crap with higher target scores .im curious about that.oh btw do any zen employees bother to respond in this forum?
ok,it`s the exact same grinding contest on the next level ,oh yes you need to stay in the last 90%percent? that would make it even easier if my math is correct. i hope this is not the promised superb pinball multiplayer experience they advertised,if it is big time fail.
Last edited by Uwe; 10-03-2017 at 12:44 PM.
I thought the scores would at least double. Seems weird its the same poo as last week. It should get harder each week. And I can only assume those who did not make the cut have the same as last week? I dont know cause I made the cut and cant see what those who did not are having to do.
It is even worse now. Because only the top 20% of the players made it to the next league, the percentage of players willing to grind is much higher there.
i just saw that the guy in the nr.1 spot has 5600 points already,probably by playing the family guy table all day and spam the chicken shot.this mode is so messed up it`s unbelievable.
Last edited by Uwe; 10-03-2017 at 06:50 PM.
World War Hulk is also ridiculously easy to beat people in. Just spam ramps, you literally don't even need to aim and it takes seconds to get to the highest persons score of a little over 2 mil. Within the 3 minutes, and with zero aiming, I can managed to safely get 12-14 million every time.
I was waiting last week to see how it settled. But yeah, the points needed are still pretty low here.
This definitely needs to be changed to limited attempts or something.
for the low target scores as they are right now 3 attempts for high score with only1 ball,no ballsaves ,kickbacks or upgrades and higher point loss for not reaching the target score would be my suggestion. or just anything better than it is now.
sseems when you got a good score on a table the target scores get higher,not sure if it`s random.can anybody confirm this?
Last edited by Uwe; 10-04-2017 at 11:38 AM.
Heyo,
sorry I was absent a bit in the last week or so, I got totally swamped with this huge release and everything I did not have time to look over the forums that much (still a small team so most of us have bunch of tasks to do).
We didn't want to limit anything in the game, so that's why you can make as many attempts you want to. We had this system in the Bethesda Pinball mobile game, and there was a limit in-place -> not a popular decision. We wanted to give people limitless play in the console and PC versions of the game.
Think of it as a hearthstone-esque league or season play, where people who play a lot can get to legend, but casual players can still progress.
Also, the player base will get segmented in the future, when the really hardcore people will be up in gold or diamond, now everyone started from the same league 'Bronze III' so that's why there is so much fluctuation.
thx for answering,guess i wait and see how this plays out,im still not convinced this is the right approach to a league that rewards playtime instead of skill. other than that big flaw i actually like the game.
Last edited by Uwe; 10-04-2017 at 12:19 PM.
but it isn't hearthstone-esque. In hearthstone, one player wins and one loses. The one who loses also loses a rank. Here it is an easy goal and everyone gets it with every try. If hearthstone was like this mode, all players would win all the time, and the few who played the most and got the most wins, would get to the next rank. But in hearthstone it is possible to get to the highest rank with a number of wins without any loss, while your opponents get better and harder to handle with every game. Here it's a simple goal everyone achieves and therefore, those who do it simply the most (not the best) climb up. there is no skill based element only endurance.
Good point.
I talked to some of our devs yesterday about the Matchup system, and they're kindof made the same arguments regarding the mode. I think you can expect some tweaks to it in the near future.
glad to hear that
Good news. I love the idea of a league but at the moment my great scores (when I get them) feel worthless!
They are worthless if they are potentially just going to reset at any given time, but also participating in tournaments gives you 25 points whether you let every ball drain or if you play for 30 minutes and beat everyone by 1/2 a billion points. No matter. 25 points.
Awesome. Glad to hear, too. Agog waiting for these tweaks. <3
And tweak, overhaul tournaments. As it is currently you can be in a tournament with 20 people and score two billion points and get 25 points at its completion or just sit there and let every ball drain and get 0 points and come in last place and still get 25 points. There needs to be an incentive to play and get the best score possible. Currently, I just eek out a score I think no one can beat then let all my balls drain so I can move onto the next tournament. It shouldnt be like that.
I think I can give a voice on this as well. I'm not sure if some of the top players in Matchup are bots or other users, but holy crap that must take a large (albeit unhealthy) amount of grinding to get up there. There needs to be some sort of cap to this.
right now the the player on the top spot has 63 000 points,if my math is correct that amounts too playing just this mode about 5-7 hours a day. lol
And for what? In a day all the scores will be reset and then we go to tier three. Assuming you make the cut.
Fame,Riches and hot Groupies
Last edited by Uwe; 10-08-2017 at 06:24 PM.
Pinball groupies? Im in for a spin........................................and by spin I mean sex, if it wasn't clear...................giggity!!Fame,Riches and hot Groupies
Almost forgot to type the secret word.......................................water.
Domination Bonus
I was also thinking about the Domination Bonus, since we're on topic of grinding. If you're not risking on the highest tier, don't give a Domination Bonus. That just defeats the whole purpose of having a difficult higher tier -- you can earn 70 points on a T2 player when you can barely edge out the top player for 55. To me, Domination is having an edge over the best, not the noobs or semi-pros.
Either that, or lock out the lowest tier(s) for those who qualify to advance, so that the amount of grinding is less. Make players risk what they have, instead of having a great safety net.
Red zone/mid-field: All difficulties available, domination only on highest difficulty. Multiple table bonus still applies.
Green zone: Only the highest tier available, greater penalty applicable, depending on amount of league points?
Last edited by Pinballwiz45b; 10-08-2017 at 09:32 PM.
good ideas,i also wonder about the diversity bonus,seems useless too me.nothing there too prevent anybody from playing the same table over and over.
just spend a minute on each table. Dont even try and you get the diversity 15 points. Then you can spend the rest of your five days grinding your favorite table and each time get the extra 15 points.
Now this is a different thing entirely. I think, for players to maximize the Diversity Bonus entirely, one must not play the same table over and over again, as soon as one reaches the full bonus of +15 per win. After a match on a given table, if one decides to choose that same table again, maybe give 5 points flat, regardless of difficulty. Penalties could be the same, or a bit more.
Something to the effect of "You've played this table recently! You'll earn less for playing this again." Make it a 5-minute timer, not visible to the player, on the table recently played. If one decides to play it again and finishes the match, reset the timer to 5 minutes on that table.
As for grinding, like I said -- make them want to risk going for a higher score. Easy should award 5 at most, and Medium at 10 or 15. If a target score is so easy to get, especially for more skilled players, it shouldn't be worth that much as it is currently. Medium also feels too much like Easy, and I'm considering raising that score threshold slightly. Maybe increments of -5 for penalties on each difficulty.
If players are in the green zone, should the rate of earning league points be decreased, albeit slightly, if sticking with the "highest difficulty-only" plan?
These are my thoughts so far. I know it's right off the top of my head, but I just wanted to give my feedback on the whole ordeal.
Im definitely beginning to lose interest in it and the tournaments and just try and eek out a score that is sufficiently high enough IMO to win and then just drain the rest of my remaining balls and move onto the next one since no matter your score you only receive 25 points the same as all the players you have beaten. No reason to take the time to get 4 billion when you can probably win with 150 million.
yeah, I'm trying to go up so to be there if the rules change, but it's a bit of a effort. Not fun.
water
i wonder if the guy with 70 000 something points will realize that his score is useless,maybe he wants a world record
He has more time on his hands than me, thats for sure.i wonder if the guy with 70 000 something points will realize that his score is useless,maybe he wants a world record
Accomplishments in real life
1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.
H20
I actually looked at the profile today....other games have been played too!
I thought I was frittering my day away a bit
I dont think Im making round 3 cut
If I dont Im giving up on this poo.
Accomplishments in real life
1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.
Didnt make it
Accomplishments in real life
1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.
How about the scores are picked straight from the leaderboards? The lowest target is the score in the 10th percentile. The middle target is in the 50th percentile (exactly average) and the high target is in the 90th percentile. Each time you pick a table within Matchup mode, it automatically plucks those scores, and their associated gamertags or whatever, from the leaderboard.
Obviously, initially, before any scores are posted, an arbitrary set of scores would need to be set, but thereafter, it would be perfectly and automatically calibrated to difficulty.
Anyone good enough to regularly beat the 90th percentile score deserves their place in the top 20%, whilst beginners could spam the lower targets with relative ease, and have a chance of climbing the boards through determination.
I don't know if it already works something like this, but if the scores are anything to go by, it doesn't. It can't. The scores are laughably low.
I also think the rewards should be disparate enough to reflect the (hopefully order of magnitude or more) difference in target difficulty. I think the low target should be 20 points, the medium 50 and the high 100.
As for the diversity bonus, clearly it is to encourage people to buy more tables, and that's fine. But the bonus is so little, it's practically irrelevant. I think it should be doubled.
Last edited by Ozzpot; 10-10-2017 at 03:18 AM.
you should have made it,i think the cutoff was at 4000 points,bronze 1 is the exact same thing as before with different tables ,target scores are still pretty low.Didnt make it
Hey everyone,
little update on the matchup system:
- There will be a change to what scores you will have to beat, you will get increased goals as you progress higher in a league (like in Bethesda Pinball the mobile game). So a win will mean more in the future.
- The diversity bonus supposed to work like this: play 1 table - 0 bonus, 2 tables - 5 bonus, 3 tables - 10 bonues, 4 tables - 15 bonus points
- You might have been on the brink of the line cantankerous, although I agree that the icon was not clear indication if you are in or not. This will be worked on as well.
so if i understood you correctly the system will stay as it is in bronze1,if you make it to the next higher league score will be more of a deciding factor than playtime?
I cant exactly remember the breakdown of my results. It was either 297 wins and 11 losses or 197 wins and 11 losses of which many of the wins I dominated and mostly always took the hardest opponent. In any case if I have to play 200 or 300 hundred 5 minute matches to not even make it in the top 20%. Good luck to the rest of you. I got a life. And its interesting to note, before the patch, in round one I scrolled those playing and saw over 7000, so to be in top 20 you only needed to be in top 1400, in round two I scrolled the leaderboard and could only see top 100. It would no longer allow me to see how many actually participated. Also, good to note every time I scrolled the leaderboards it would glitch out and shut me down with an error report.
Last edited by cantankerous--; 10-10-2017 at 12:17 PM.
Accomplishments in real life
1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.
Yeah, this matchup system is pretty stupid. It just amounts to who plays the most. It's a useless grind. As much as I hate being limited, Bethesda Pinball on Android limits you to at most 9 games per day in the matchup mode. It at least puts everyone on an even playing field time wise.
I was excited about the matchup mode at first, but in reality it's a huge disappointment. You have to play many games to reach the top 20%. And the more games people play, the more games you need to play to climb up. It's ridiculous! In the end it's about who puts in the most time to play the most games.
Unless the system is changed I see no point in participating.
Understandable, still working on tuning the mode. Probably beating harder opponents will be rewarded more to make skill matter more.
Yeah,I'm just losing enjoyment,and just playing to keep my league place.
I can't really understand how,that on the first few days after restart,there's top scores of 1500/2000 +?
Like what's been said,it's down to TIME and not skill,and I just can't hold interest to constantly hammer the same tables,to slowly progress up.
Another question,is that shouldn't the Mini games for each table NOT be timed?
The cutscenes are not timed,but with just 3 minutes,I just leave the ball to drop out,because scoring adequately takes too much time,and renders the whole thing POINTLESS..
What do others think?
Seems like it doesn't work properly.
In the current league someone i know is #7 with 1900+ points and only one table : Pasha. Apparently he just beats the scores by a little and stop there so he only gets low scores. Maybe he also loses deliberately to lower the scores sometimes. Here is a screenshot (in french) :
pm3ebHL.jpg
I think some tweaking is needed here to take higher scores depending on your position in the leaderboard for instance. Which scores to take is the problem. If all (or many of) the top players are abusing this, then the top scores in the league should be taken (no matter the rank). Otherwise the scores of the top ranked could fit.
Last edited by Harest; 01-13-2018 at 01:09 PM.
First off, this proposed change in the current match up system has not occurred. Not yet. Who knows when it will, but your picture does not clearly tell us, who probably mostly speak english what your issue is. I'm like, huhhhhhhh, what?????? Maybe it's Friday night and I've had too much to drink, but WTF? Not getting it.
Accomplishments in real life
1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.
It didn't occur ? Without abusing the system and playing normally, the scores i need to beat are well increased. Just checked here, i didn't play much and i've 2 tables in the current league. I'm #68, 640 points. On Pasha i need to beat between 6M to 9M4 (i think it lowered since, afair the lowest was 8M last time i checked).
For the issue i'm showing here i thought it was well displayed / summed up. A ranked #7 in the current league with 1900+ points and only one table (Pasha) : Only need to beat scores between 2M8 and 5M, lulz. The trick being as he told me to apparently only beat the scores you need to beat by a small margin. Maybe also to deliberately lose so it'll lower the scores required to be beaten. Since a victory will always give you at least 4 times what you lose in a defeat.
Last edited by Harest; 01-13-2018 at 01:20 PM.
Lots of changes should be made with matchup.
1.JPGquik.JPG
Play matchup and beat your opponents score to advance? When do I advance?
I'm so bored playing matchup. Keep score low and do lots is not rewarding. I play 35 points to see how low scores could go down. I got Venom scoring as low as 1000 every launch for 45 points. I just launch and leave. watch tv, write on the forum and launch again. all via remote play. I got other more better things happening and still can launch ball without looking.
Now it is just me and Hidden. Hidden is always my opponent, We are playing leap frog now. If I snooze, I looze. I hired a substitute player to press launch button while I sleep.
Yawn
zero.JPG
matchup 2.JPG
matchup 5.JPG
Can anybody match or come close to a score this low, and with so many super powers.
Matchup needs a makeover.
Hey rollerrocker!
Thanks for your feedback!
Regarding league Diamond - ""Rise even higher": We understand your problem, it totally makes sense - I forwarded it to our developers, they will solve this problem as soon as possible.
Regarding matchups: Thank you for reporting this issue, I will inform our developers about it! This information is very important for us!
We appreciate your support!
Have a nice day!
Match up as it stands is a completely flawed and awful concept. You are basically penalized for performing well. The next score to beat is based on the previous one (think a water mark you always need to push upwards), so it works in your best interest to keep the delta change to that as small as possible (ie beat the score by as min as possible).
At the moment, I'm getting moved up leagues by scoring like 1-1.2 million on average per table at the end of the week.
1. Play once on each of the 4 tables (or as many as you have). This gives all the variety bonus.
2. Keep selecting max score for 40 points, and beat it by as little as you possibly can (usually holding the ball until time runs out).
3. Repeat until you get dulled out.
Scrap the whole mode, concept is broken at the core. I can only see is there to try and promote selling of packs by including one table from a pack that's low in sales per weekly match up.
You've summed it up perfectly. As things stand, mediocre players are exploiting this system to horrendous lengths. I don't think it needs scrapping though, just tweaking. Players need to be incentivised to score as heavily as possible. Don't punish players for scoring big, reward them accordingly. I really hope Zen are listening!
Well they do have the domination bonus, but its completely pointless as the points received from it are massively lower than what you could achieve just grinding.
Example
1. Target score is 1 million for 40 matchup points
2. You score what is close to your best possible, 20 million, and get 40 match up points, +variety (upto 15 points) + say 20 domination match up points
3. You have now locked yourself out of getting any more points on that table, as you've pushed the watermark up so high you can't achieve the simple wins
To me the only way this can work is if they make the match up points a ratio of the table score, but at that point you might as well just have another leaderboard.
The only time I've ever seen this 'water mark' based scoring actually work is in the metropolis street racing / project gotham racing series
I've not heard this term watermark before, but I follow the meaning. The change probably needs to be made in the domination bonus, so perhaps a target score doesn't rise ridiculously when you smash it, plus you get a domination bonus based on the number of points you exceed the target score by, perhaps a percentage. I haven't put too much thought into it, but I figured the current system was heavily broken months ago. Whatever changes are implemented, the following needs to apply: All players are rewarded commensurately with their scores, & encouraged to score as heavily as possible, game after game. Like all game modes, the best players should be dominant. Most of the players I see raking in forty thousand plus points per week don't seem to have any success in five minute mode, which in theory should be their speciality. Switching up the system will pull the rug from under their talentless, obsessive compulsive feet.
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