Death Save (nudge)

[emboliformis]

Is it me or was nudging ability nerfed? I used to pull off death saves with d-pad all the time (mostly on Zen Pinball 2 on ps3 and ps4). And I got that Avengers table trophy (for death save/bang back) in about a minute in both versions. But it took me 2 hours to get the same trophy on Pinball FX3. I can't do death saves like I used to. Not even close.

[cantankerous--]

It's still possible. Just easier on some tables than others.

[flashingblade]

they have got a lot harder on xbox1 than they were in FX2

[shogun00]

I haven't notice much of a difference between ZP2 and PFX3, except for the sweet spot seems to be a different spot.

[emboliformis]

I have tried to practice it probably several hundred times by nudging between the flippers and never seemed to manage a nudge with a good enough power/height. And i tried death saves a lot of time, but I can save the ball 1 out of 10-15 times and they didn't usually count for that trophy, apparently it requires a clean, powerful save. I finally used another controller (hori pad fps plus) instead of my official ds4 and did it much easier with that, but still much harder than zp2. I guess I need to find that sweet spot...

[hajdu]

Hey Everyone,
we received plenty of feedback about this question.
The main reason behind the change of the nudge is that we are tried to mimic the reality much more since the new graphical engine gave us this opportunity.
We know that this change looks way bigger than it should be in the first place but we truly believe that this new setting will help improving the experience.

[OriginalEther]

The difference I’ve really noticed is in nudge passing. If the ball is moving fast it usually does not work

[Cornholio]

Which outlane are we talking about here, cause death saves are only done when the ball is drained from the right outlane? Bang backs are done from the left outlane drain.

[cantankerous--]

Which outlane are we talking about here, cause death saves are only done when the ball is drained from the right outlane? Bang backs are done from the left outlane drain.

Is this really a thing or are you just messing with us?

[Cornholio]

Is this really a thing or are you just messing with us?

Death Save (from right outlane)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZljaPDYpXs

Bang Back (from left outlane)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ

[gaz5021]

ZP2 on Wii U: https://youtu.be/l5sv1MbhJ7c

[Cornholio]

In real pinball, there is a difference, but it's not what you stated above.

Seeing as I provided evidence from the most respected pinball source, and you haven't provided any, I think I'll go with my explanation.

[cantankerous--]

Seeing as I provided evidence from the most respected pinball source, and you haven't provided any, I think I'll go with my explanation.

It seems ridiculous to argue that virtual pinball is the same as real pinball. A nudge save from the right is the same as a nudge from the left. Call it what you want, but they are the same thing.

[Cornholio]

It seems ridiculous to argue that virtual pinball is the same as real pinball. A nudge save from the right is the same as a nudge from the left. Call it what you want, but they are the same thing.

It really depends on how Zen build their outlanes and aprons. If they're symmetrical, then yes, you're right. But if they're built like real pinball aprons and outlanes, then no, you're wrong.

[Alzander]

Is it me or was nudging ability nerfed? I used to pull off death saves with d-pad all the time (mostly on Zen Pinball 2 on ps3 and ps4). And I got that Avengers table trophy (for death save/bang back) in about a minute in both versions. But it took me 2 hours to get the same trophy on Pinball FX3. I can't do death saves like I used to. Not even close.

I totally agree. Before patch 1.02 nudge saves worked perfectly fine with the D-Pad. I was able to nudge save round about 70% on Boba Fett table. After patch i'm around 1 out of 15. Depends on table though. Unfortunately I stopped Playing Pinball FX3 because of that and switched back to Zen Pinball 2.
Generally nudge saving with D-Pad worked a lot better compared to the analog sticks. Now i'm forced to use the analog sticks, because the power of nudging with D-Pad has been decreased that much with patch 1.02.

Don't get me wrong, I really loved playing Pinball FX3 and i really would like to buy the new tables, but with this change I'm not having fun.

[Lord Squeak]

As I understand it here is how both of them work...

Bang Back - you lift the flipper on the same side as the ball, up-nudge hard to make the ball bounce up from the outlane/apron.

Death save - you lift the flipper on the opposite side of the ball, and violently move the table to make the opposite outlane/apron bounce the ball back up to the flippers.

Those PAPA tutorials (linked earlier) shows this quite clearly

Different methods to achieve the same thing, both banned from tournament play, because it's not nice to the machine, and it would make tournaments go on forever.


re topic, it is for sure much harder to perform this on keyboard since that infamous nerf back in fx2. due to it is damn near improbable to time hitting 2 keys at the same time (when failing to time it, it usually just does one of the keys, resulting in a very weak nudge), also when succeeding to time it, you get 2 warnings for that one move, leaving us keyboard players with only up nudge which is much weaker than the diagonal nudge you are able to do on joypads. It's still doable, but less likely to succeed.

[Alzander]

As I understand it here is how both of them work...

Bang Back - you lift the flipper on the same side as the ball, up-nudge hard to make the ball bounce up from the outlane/apron.

Death save - you lift the flipper on the opposite side of the ball, and violently move the table to make the opposite outlane/apron bounce the ball back up to the flippers.

Those PAPA tutorials (linked earlier) shows this quite clearly

Different methods to achieve the same thing, both banned from tournament play, because it's not nice to the machine, and it would make tournaments go on forever.


re topic, it is for sure much harder to perform this on keyboard since that infamous nerf back in fx2. due to it is damn near improbable to time hitting 2 keys at the same time (when failing to time it, it usually just does one of the keys, resulting in a very weak nudge), also when succeeding to time it, you get 2 warnings for that one move, leaving us keyboard players with only up nudge which is much weaker than the diagonal nudge you are able to do on joypads. It's still doable, but less likely to succeed.

I agree, but with patch 1.02 they nerfed/removed the diagonal nudge on the joypad using the D-Pad. Sometimes it works with the analog sticks.

[flashingblade]

On xbox1 the diagonal nudge is weaker than it was in fx2. In fx2 the stick was weaker than the d-pad, in fx3 the d-pad has been made weaker

[Cornholio]

Sorry just need to clarify my points a bit further (then I'll shut up about it).

There's a reason why I keep saying BB's are only done from a left drain and DS's are only done from a right drain and why I mentioned it depends whether Zen make their (virtual) aprons symmetrical. It's because on real pinballs the aprons are not symmetrical and therefore give you different places to 'smack' the ball against.

Here are 3 examples with an apron taken off a real Ghostbusters to show how the ball drain hole affects where you 'bounce' the ball in a BB or DS:

Death saves are only achievable from the right drain because:



DS's are not possible with a left drain because:



You don't bother with BB's from the right drain because there's less area to bang against on the right (and DS's are easier to achieve) Red lines show available 'bang space':



If Zen make they're virtual table aprons/drains symmetrical then my points are mute and I accept that.

[cantankerous--]

I love your passion for pinball as I also share it, but since the argument about the bang back requires a physical machine then your argument is moot..............no matter the width of the left or right lanes, nudge the ball and save it and its a death save cause you saved your ball by nudging and not physically assaulting the machine, which of course none of us have. We have a digital representation of pinball that we play with a controller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ, but call it whatever you want based on your experience with physical pinball machines. On a digital representation of a pinball machine the action is still the same. Just nudge however you have your controller set up.

[Cornholio]

I love your passion for pinball as I also share it, but since the argument about the bang back requires a physical machine then your argument is moot..............no matter the width of the left or right lanes, nudge the ball and save it and its a death save cause you saved your ball by nudging and not physically assaulting the machine, which of course none of us have. We have a digital representation of pinball that we play with a controller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ, but call it whatever you want based on your experience with physical pinball machines. On a digital representation of a pinball machine the action is still the same. Just nudge however you have your controller set up.

Bollocks. Real or virtual makes no difference (*pending symmetry in virtual). Words have meanings and the meaning of a bang bag is a save from a left drain being banged back from the left apron. A save from the right lane hitting the left apron is a death save. You can't change meanings of words based on your opinion.

* As mentioned previously, if zen aprons are symmetrical then you could do both BB's and DS's from either side

[cantankerous--]

I can see you will never, ever let this go so I concede Mr. Cornholio. You have bested me, and, I'm terribly bored of this conversation, so alas I will leave and my only hope is that you have at least learned the difference between moot and mute, and I don't say this to be a spell check natzi. I actually spelled it wrong for many years, thinking it made me look smarter when using it...............back in my day every browser didn't have spell check and tell you it was spelled wrong and one day someone called me out for it and I simply thought it was mute. Oh well, now Im older. Later bro.

[Cornholio]

I can see you will never, ever let this go so I concede Mr. Cornholio.

I can't concede when I'm 100% correct

You have bested me, and, I'm terribly bored of this conversation, so alas I will leave and my only hope is that you have at least learned the difference between moot and mute, and I don't say this to be a spell check natzi. I actually spelled it wrong for many years, thinking it made me look smarter when using it...............back in my day every browser didn't have spell check and tell you it was spelled wrong and one day someone called me out for it and I simply thought it was mute. Oh well, now Im older. Later bro.

I fully concede to Mute. I didn't even realise I wrote it that way

[cantankerous--]

I can't concede when I'm 100% correct



I fully concede to Mute. I didn't even realise I wrote it that way

Nothing but love Sir. Later.

[hajdu]

Hey guys,
it was an interesting and adventurous reading!

We are working on the physics in the game update by update so in the future it may improve more but a big change in it is not on the table right now.

We understand and know this could take time to adapt but we deeply believe that this is the way this game is meant to be created for you!

Wishing you a wonderful holiday season!

[emboliformis]

Which outlane are we talking about here, cause death saves are only done when the ball is drained from the right outlane? Bang backs are done from the left outlane drain.

Hi, as the original poster, I wanted to answer your question. I actually didn't know that these 2 (death save and bang back) are different things irl and thanks for the informative posts So I was talking about generally saving the ball from either left or right outlane. And I can confirm that I got this trophy by saving the ball from the left outlane drain. And I know a friend who got it from the right outlane drain. So I guess Zen didn't put this difference in the game, cause it says "bang back" in the trophy description and this trophy can be obtained from both outlanes.

Thanks again

[hajdu]

Guys,
off with the hats, this topic is more interesting than anything I saw on TV in the last 2 years

[Cornholio]

Thanks to you both.

I wasn't trying to be an ass (my back and forth with @cantankerous), but trying to be informative. I'm glad my points got through.

And yes @emboliformis, it seems to be the case that Zen wasn't aware of the 2 either.

[surf1der]

Hi, as the original poster, I wanted to answer your question. I actually didn't know that these 2 (death save and bang back) are different things irl and thanks for the informative posts So I was talking about generally saving the ball from either left or right outlane. And I can confirm that I got this trophy by saving the ball from the left outlane drain. And I know a friend who got it from the right outlane drain. So I guess Zen didn't put this difference in the game, cause it says "bang back" in the trophy description and this trophy can be obtained from both outlanes.

Thanks again

Actually a bang back can be made from either outlane, though typically the left. To my knowledge, death saves can only be made from the right outlane due to the geometry of the outlanes on some machines, namely the right side is higher than the left which allows you to get a bounce over the drain. I'm not aware of any machine that has this geometry reversed so it shouldn't be possible from the left outlane.

[emboliformis]

Months later, I'm still struggling with this new nudge mechanic. I can't save balls from the outlanes at all. Rewind power-up kind of makes up for it if you upgrade it, but I would have still preferred the old way, where it wasn't that hard to do death save/bang backs.

I'm currently working on some of my pinball games. And I usually play one table at a time. Sometimes I'm trying to get the trophies of the same table on Marvel Pinball (ps3) / Star Wars Pinball (ps3 and vita), Zen Pinball 2 (ps3 and ps4) and Pinball FX3. It's always hardest to do them on Pinball FX3 for me simply because I cannot do death saves. I found it slightly easier to do with the sticks instead of d-pad on Pinball FX3, but I can't simply change the nudge button between games, because my fingers go to the d-pad automatically each time I want to nudge the table

[donsll]

Hi
I am in the process of making a box that will mimic a real pinball machine with nudging.
Nudging is part of playing pinball. At tournaments everyone nudges and without it you would NEVER win

[t33]

Months later, I'm still struggling with this new nudge mechanic. I can't save balls from the outlanes at all. Rewind power-up kind of makes up for it if you upgrade it, but I would have still preferred the old way, where it wasn't that hard to do death save/bang backs.

I'm currently working on some of my pinball games. And I usually play one table at a time. Sometimes I'm trying to get the trophies of the same table on Marvel Pinball (ps3) / Star Wars Pinball (ps3 and vita), Zen Pinball 2 (ps3 and ps4) and Pinball FX3. It's always hardest to do them on Pinball FX3 for me simply because I cannot do death saves. I found it slightly easier to do with the sticks instead of d-pad on Pinball FX3, but I can't simply change the nudge button between games, because my fingers go to the d-pad automatically each time I want to nudge the table

I can't do it with a keyboard, but on the controller it works quite fine. There are tables where it's rather easy (eg. Son of Zeus) but others are hard for me, too.

[Wolfie]

Ive managed 2 or 3 saves in the last couple of days. I find them hard to pull off, and they should be. Otherwise the game challenge would be ruined. Passing between flippers works very well for me though.

[McLovin]

I actually gotten quite proficient at it, and it has become one of my favorite things to do in the game.

[Cloda]

I recently moved over from Pinball FX2 on XBox 360 and Zen Pinball 2 on Mac to Pinball FX3 on Xbox One. One major difference between the previous versions and FX3 is that it is almost impossible to pull off a death save / bang back (I'm not even going to try and get the terms right ). On Deadpool it seems necessary to do else the table plays that much harder. I also noticed it on Wolverine where Wolverine cheered you on when you got it right... now it is basically impossible.

[TuttiDeLeon]

I recently moved over from Pinball FX2 on XBox 360 and Zen Pinball 2 on Mac to Pinball FX3 on Xbox One. One major difference between the previous versions and FX3 is that it is almost impossible to pull off a death save / bang back (I'm not even going to try and get the terms right ). On Deadpool it seems necessary to do else the table plays that much harder. I also noticed it on Wolverine where Wolverine cheered you on when you got it right... now it is basically impossible.

It's as easy as it ever was on PS4. Logan told me I was clever so many times in a recent game it went straight to my head which I now can't fit through the door.

[zaphod77]

Specifically, a bang back is done as the ball rolls under the flipper, while the death save is done when the ball is between them.

on most games where a death save is possible, it's from a right outlane drain, though certain machines have posts that will allow it from the left (the "Gottlieb Death Save").

On many Data East games, the death save, if timed correctly, will not even give you a warning, just do a short and sharp nudge up and right as the ball strikes the left gutter. This is why they got banned in tournaments. on most other real pinball games you will probably get a warning or two from one, as more force is required.

The bang back will not actually give you a warning at all if done correctly, because the machine hardly moves. it does a newtons cradle like transfer of force from your hand to the machine to the ball. It can set off a slam switch, though.

[hunter328]

I can't concede when I'm 100% correct



I fully concede to Mute. I didn't even realise I wrote it that way

After reading through this entertaining back and forth I’ve got to say Cornholio made the stronger argument. I never knew the difference before either, always thinking they referred to the same thing.

On another point you’re both drastically incorrect. It’s moo. A moo point, as in a point a cow would make.