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Thread: Death Save (nudge)

  1. #1
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    Default Death Save (nudge)

    Is it me or was nudging ability nerfed? I used to pull off death saves with d-pad all the time (mostly on Zen Pinball 2 on ps3 and ps4). And I got that Avengers table trophy (for death save/bang back) in about a minute in both versions. But it took me 2 hours to get the same trophy on Pinball FX3. I can't do death saves like I used to. Not even close.

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    It's still possible. Just easier on some tables than others.
    pssssst..........over here..........*In muffled voice* The secret, random word is water. Don't tell anyone.

    I was so very excited when I saw that my XP level had gone up to level 41 and then so very upset when Mc Lovin informed me that It looked like a glitch, but, hey guess what, I'm level 41 and the rest of you are only level 40 or less so suck it bitches.

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    they have got a lot harder on xbox1 than they were in FX2

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    I haven't notice much of a difference between ZP2 and PFX3, except for the sweet spot seems to be a different spot.

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    Default Death Save

    I have tried to practice it probably several hundred times by nudging between the flippers and never seemed to manage a nudge with a good enough power/height. And i tried death saves a lot of time, but I can save the ball 1 out of 10-15 times and they didn't usually count for that trophy, apparently it requires a clean, powerful save. I finally used another controller (hori pad fps plus) instead of my official ds4 and did it much easier with that, but still much harder than zp2. I guess I need to find that sweet spot...

  6. #6
    Community Representative hajdu's Avatar
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    Hey Everyone,
    we received plenty of feedback about this question.
    The main reason behind the change of the nudge is that we are tried to mimic the reality much more since the new graphical engine gave us this opportunity.
    We know that this change looks way bigger than it should be in the first place but we truly believe that this new setting will help improving the experience.

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    The difference I’ve really noticed is in nudge passing. If the ball is moving fast it usually does not work
    Tables completed: Ms Splosion Man, Spiderman, BioLab, Captain America, Empire Strikes Back, The Avengers, Wolverine, World War Hulk, Sorcerer's Lair, Fantastic Four, Blade, X-Men, Thor, Moon Knight, Infinity Gauntlet, Super League Football, Starfighter Assault, Han Solo
    Billionaire's Club: Spider-Man, World War Hulk, The Avengers, Sorcerer's Lair, Empire Strikes Back, Captain America, Ms. Splosion Man, Han Solo

  8. #8

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    Which outlane are we talking about here, cause death saves are only done when the ball is drained from the right outlane? Bang backs are done from the left outlane drain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornholio View Post
    Which outlane are we talking about here, cause death saves are only done when the ball is drained from the right outlane? Bang backs are done from the left outlane drain.
    Is this really a thing or are you just messing with us?
    pssssst..........over here..........*In muffled voice* The secret, random word is water. Don't tell anyone.

    I was so very excited when I saw that my XP level had gone up to level 41 and then so very upset when Mc Lovin informed me that It looked like a glitch, but, hey guess what, I'm level 41 and the rest of you are only level 40 or less so suck it bitches.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    Is this really a thing or are you just messing with us?
    Death Save (from right outlane)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZljaPDYpXs

    Bang Back (from left outlane)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ

  11. #11

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    In real pinball, there is a difference, but it's not what you stated above.
    Seeing as I provided evidence from the most respected pinball source, and you haven't provided any, I think I'll go with my explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornholio View Post
    Seeing as I provided evidence from the most respected pinball source, and you haven't provided any, I think I'll go with my explanation.
    It seems ridiculous to argue that virtual pinball is the same as real pinball. A nudge save from the right is the same as a nudge from the left. Call it what you want, but they are the same thing.
    pssssst..........over here..........*In muffled voice* The secret, random word is water. Don't tell anyone.

    I was so very excited when I saw that my XP level had gone up to level 41 and then so very upset when Mc Lovin informed me that It looked like a glitch, but, hey guess what, I'm level 41 and the rest of you are only level 40 or less so suck it bitches.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    It seems ridiculous to argue that virtual pinball is the same as real pinball. A nudge save from the right is the same as a nudge from the left. Call it what you want, but they are the same thing.
    It really depends on how Zen build their outlanes and aprons. If they're symmetrical, then yes, you're right. But if they're built like real pinball aprons and outlanes, then no, you're wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emboliformis View Post
    Is it me or was nudging ability nerfed? I used to pull off death saves with d-pad all the time (mostly on Zen Pinball 2 on ps3 and ps4). And I got that Avengers table trophy (for death save/bang back) in about a minute in both versions. But it took me 2 hours to get the same trophy on Pinball FX3. I can't do death saves like I used to. Not even close.
    I totally agree. Before patch 1.02 nudge saves worked perfectly fine with the D-Pad. I was able to nudge save round about 70% on Boba Fett table. After patch i'm around 1 out of 15. Depends on table though. Unfortunately I stopped Playing Pinball FX3 because of that and switched back to Zen Pinball 2.
    Generally nudge saving with D-Pad worked a lot better compared to the analog sticks. Now i'm forced to use the analog sticks, because the power of nudging with D-Pad has been decreased that much with patch 1.02.

    Don't get me wrong, I really loved playing Pinball FX3 and i really would like to buy the new tables, but with this change I'm not having fun.

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    As I understand it here is how both of them work...

    Bang Back - you lift the flipper on the same side as the ball, up-nudge hard to make the ball bounce up from the outlane/apron.

    Death save - you lift the flipper on the opposite side of the ball, and violently move the table to make the opposite outlane/apron bounce the ball back up to the flippers.

    Those PAPA tutorials (linked earlier) shows this quite clearly

    Different methods to achieve the same thing, both banned from tournament play, because it's not nice to the machine, and it would make tournaments go on forever.


    re topic, it is for sure much harder to perform this on keyboard since that infamous nerf back in fx2. due to it is damn near improbable to time hitting 2 keys at the same time (when failing to time it, it usually just does one of the keys, resulting in a very weak nudge), also when succeeding to time it, you get 2 warnings for that one move, leaving us keyboard players with only up nudge which is much weaker than the diagonal nudge you are able to do on joypads. It's still doable, but less likely to succeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Squeak View Post
    As I understand it here is how both of them work...

    Bang Back - you lift the flipper on the same side as the ball, up-nudge hard to make the ball bounce up from the outlane/apron.

    Death save - you lift the flipper on the opposite side of the ball, and violently move the table to make the opposite outlane/apron bounce the ball back up to the flippers.

    Those PAPA tutorials (linked earlier) shows this quite clearly

    Different methods to achieve the same thing, both banned from tournament play, because it's not nice to the machine, and it would make tournaments go on forever.


    re topic, it is for sure much harder to perform this on keyboard since that infamous nerf back in fx2. due to it is damn near improbable to time hitting 2 keys at the same time (when failing to time it, it usually just does one of the keys, resulting in a very weak nudge), also when succeeding to time it, you get 2 warnings for that one move, leaving us keyboard players with only up nudge which is much weaker than the diagonal nudge you are able to do on joypads. It's still doable, but less likely to succeed.
    I agree, but with patch 1.02 they nerfed/removed the diagonal nudge on the joypad using the D-Pad. Sometimes it works with the analog sticks.

  18. #18

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    On xbox1 the diagonal nudge is weaker than it was in fx2. In fx2 the stick was weaker than the d-pad, in fx3 the d-pad has been made weaker

  19. #19

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    Sorry just need to clarify my points a bit further (then I'll shut up about it).

    There's a reason why I keep saying BB's are only done from a left drain and DS's are only done from a right drain and why I mentioned it depends whether Zen make their (virtual) aprons symmetrical. It's because on real pinballs the aprons are not symmetrical and therefore give you different places to 'smack' the ball against.

    Here are 3 examples with an apron taken off a real Ghostbusters to show how the ball drain hole affects where you 'bounce' the ball in a BB or DS:

    Death saves are only achievable from the right drain because:



    DS's are not possible with a left drain because:



    You don't bother with BB's from the right drain because there's less area to bang against on the right (and DS's are easier to achieve) Red lines show available 'bang space':



    If Zen make they're virtual table aprons/drains symmetrical then my points are mute and I accept that.

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    I love your passion for pinball as I also share it, but since the argument about the bang back requires a physical machine then your argument is moot..............no matter the width of the left or right lanes, nudge the ball and save it and its a death save cause you saved your ball by nudging and not physically assaulting the machine, which of course none of us have. We have a digital representation of pinball that we play with a controller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ, but call it whatever you want based on your experience with physical pinball machines. On a digital representation of a pinball machine the action is still the same. Just nudge however you have your controller set up.
    Last edited by cantankerous--; 12-01-2017 at 03:16 PM.
    pssssst..........over here..........*In muffled voice* The secret, random word is water. Don't tell anyone.

    I was so very excited when I saw that my XP level had gone up to level 41 and then so very upset when Mc Lovin informed me that It looked like a glitch, but, hey guess what, I'm level 41 and the rest of you are only level 40 or less so suck it bitches.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    I love your passion for pinball as I also share it, but since the argument about the bang back requires a physical machine then your argument is moot..............no matter the width of the left or right lanes, nudge the ball and save it and its a death save cause you saved your ball by nudging and not physically assaulting the machine, which of course none of us have. We have a digital representation of pinball that we play with a controller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ, but call it whatever you want based on your experience with physical pinball machines. On a digital representation of a pinball machine the action is still the same. Just nudge however you have your controller set up.
    Bollocks. Real or virtual makes no difference (*pending symmetry in virtual). Words have meanings and the meaning of a bang bag is a save from a left drain being banged back from the left apron. A save from the right lane hitting the left apron is a death save. You can't change meanings of words based on your opinion.

    * As mentioned previously, if zen aprons are symmetrical then you could do both BB's and DS's from either side

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    I can see you will never, ever let this go so I concede Mr. Cornholio. You have bested me, and, I'm terribly bored of this conversation, so alas I will leave and my only hope is that you have at least learned the difference between moot and mute, and I don't say this to be a spell check natzi. I actually spelled it wrong for many years, thinking it made me look smarter when using it...............back in my day every browser didn't have spell check and tell you it was spelled wrong and one day someone called me out for it and I simply thought it was mute. Oh well, now Im older. Later bro.
    pssssst..........over here..........*In muffled voice* The secret, random word is water. Don't tell anyone.

    I was so very excited when I saw that my XP level had gone up to level 41 and then so very upset when Mc Lovin informed me that It looked like a glitch, but, hey guess what, I'm level 41 and the rest of you are only level 40 or less so suck it bitches.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    I can see you will never, ever let this go so I concede Mr. Cornholio.
    I can't concede when I'm 100% correct

    You have bested me, and, I'm terribly bored of this conversation, so alas I will leave and my only hope is that you have at least learned the difference between moot and mute, and I don't say this to be a spell check natzi. I actually spelled it wrong for many years, thinking it made me look smarter when using it...............back in my day every browser didn't have spell check and tell you it was spelled wrong and one day someone called me out for it and I simply thought it was mute. Oh well, now Im older. Later bro.
    I fully concede to Mute. I didn't even realise I wrote it that way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornholio View Post
    I can't concede when I'm 100% correct



    I fully concede to Mute. I didn't even realise I wrote it that way
    Nothing but love Sir. Later.
    pssssst..........over here..........*In muffled voice* The secret, random word is water. Don't tell anyone.

    I was so very excited when I saw that my XP level had gone up to level 41 and then so very upset when Mc Lovin informed me that It looked like a glitch, but, hey guess what, I'm level 41 and the rest of you are only level 40 or less so suck it bitches.

  25. #25
    Community Representative hajdu's Avatar
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    Hey guys,
    it was an interesting and adventurous reading!

    We are working on the physics in the game update by update so in the future it may improve more but a big change in it is not on the table right now.

    We understand and know this could take time to adapt but we deeply believe that this is the way this game is meant to be created for you!

    Wishing you a wonderful holiday season!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornholio View Post
    Which outlane are we talking about here, cause death saves are only done when the ball is drained from the right outlane? Bang backs are done from the left outlane drain.
    Hi, as the original poster, I wanted to answer your question. I actually didn't know that these 2 (death save and bang back) are different things irl and thanks for the informative posts So I was talking about generally saving the ball from either left or right outlane. And I can confirm that I got this trophy by saving the ball from the left outlane drain. And I know a friend who got it from the right outlane drain. So I guess Zen didn't put this difference in the game, cause it says "bang back" in the trophy description and this trophy can be obtained from both outlanes.

    Thanks again

  27. #27
    Community Representative hajdu's Avatar
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    Guys,
    off with the hats, this topic is more interesting than anything I saw on TV in the last 2 years

  28. #28

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    Thanks to you both.

    I wasn't trying to be an ass (my back and forth with @cantankerous), but trying to be informative. I'm glad my points got through.

    And yes @emboliformis, it seems to be the case that Zen wasn't aware of the 2 either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emboliformis View Post
    Hi, as the original poster, I wanted to answer your question. I actually didn't know that these 2 (death save and bang back) are different things irl and thanks for the informative posts So I was talking about generally saving the ball from either left or right outlane. And I can confirm that I got this trophy by saving the ball from the left outlane drain. And I know a friend who got it from the right outlane drain. So I guess Zen didn't put this difference in the game, cause it says "bang back" in the trophy description and this trophy can be obtained from both outlanes.

    Thanks again
    Actually a bang back can be made from either outlane, though typically the left. To my knowledge, death saves can only be made from the right outlane due to the geometry of the outlanes on some machines, namely the right side is higher than the left which allows you to get a bounce over the drain. I'm not aware of any machine that has this geometry reversed so it shouldn't be possible from the left outlane.

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