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Thread: Cheating

  1. #1
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    Default Cheating

    Just wondering if Zen is aware of the obvious cheating happening on the leaderboards, and if anything can be done about it.

    It doesn't bother me too much - some of them are easy to spot, and I still have the satisfaction of being the obvious #1 legit score on some tables, but it's still somewhat annoying.

    I've taken some screenshots of the more obvious ones which can be viewed here: https://imgur.com/a/rzx8D

    At the very least, the following users should simply be banned and have their scores erased:

    !!!!!!
    kthula666
    Ardenwolfe

    I can't figure out how one would score multiple billions on Sorcerer's Lair in the 5 minute challenge, so zombiewizard45 and YuraWhirlwind are obviously very sus as well (and that's being generous - I'd be shocked if any of the top 5 scores on that list are legit).

    I'm keen to hear Zen's (and others') thoughts on this issue.

    Is it related to the fact that you can't save your game in tournament mode? Do people do this by manipulating the data sent to the server, on the PC version of the game? The fact that many of these bogus scores are in the even millions says to me it's not a simple case of them backing up their saved game. Having said that, some of the suspicious scores aren't rounded off like that.

    What are the odds that the top score in each Challenge mode of a particular table are round millions? 1 in 10^18? Haha.

  2. #2

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    I looked at the pic you posted a link to and it looks like v12? I cant post a good score on that table anymore since zen mucked with the physics, but I used to be able to get scores in the billions on that table. Now, its too frustrating to even play, but those scores seem possible to me.

    You cant just come in here and accuse people of cheating just because you cant figure out how they were able to best your score. How do you believe they were able to cheat?
    Last edited by cantankerous--; 02-24-2018 at 01:52 PM.
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

  3. #3

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    I dug deeper and found that some of those guys have the same score on the playstation network as well. How do you propose they are able to cheat and post bogus scores on both networks? The other scores you posted are pretty similar to what is posted on the playstation network by other guys.
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Tech101's Avatar
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    I'll be honest and I'm on my phone. I can't even make out any of those scores. They are all a blurry mess so I can even see them. The only obvious cheats I've seen have been on Wizardscore and Superscore. The top 2 on both are obvious cheats so at the very least remove those.
    Proud member of the Hyna Gang! Keeping pinball alive on the Wii U!

  5. #5

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    Ok, after looking at the pics again and then seeing the score on playstation network is exactly the same it does look odd to me. I mean how does one get a precise score of 414,000,000 on two different networks?
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

  6. #6

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    I know there is a device that allows you to cheat game save data on the ps4 I cant tell you what firmware it works on or any other details other than a device is out, and supposedly the switch is already cracked and you can put stuff on it on earlier firmwares so I guess it is possible to manipulate the scores?
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

  7. #7
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    Yeah, the image quality was poor. I've re-uploaded them in better quality.

    Have another look at the images and allow me to explain further.

    You'll notice that the player named "kthula666" has six scores in those screenshots that are all in the even millions - i.e. 234,000,000, 113,000,000 etc, rather than something like 234,449,100 or 113,811,900. The odds of this player's three high scores being as such on Biolab, for example, are astronomically low. Virtually impossible. Literally 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000. There are many more scores like that by this player on the boards, I just chose a few tables to post as an example. Trust me, it's not legit.

    One of the images is indeed V12. The top score on there now just so happens to be 947,000,000. It's also insanely unlikely that this score was achieved normally. To be precise, it's one in a million.

    I am here accusing these people of cheating. I can, and I am. What you are correct about, is that I don't know how they have posted those scores, but that isn't the issue. I don't care how they did it. I know how those scores weren't achieved, though - by playing the game normally.

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    (deleted - trying to post a better-quality image for mobile users)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    I know there is a device that allows you to cheat game save data on the ps4 I cant tell you what firmware it works on or any other details other than a device is out, and supposedly the switch is already cracked and you can put stuff on it on earlier firmwares so I guess it is possible to manipulate the scores?
    Nah, none of the suspected cheaters are Switch users. I can tell by selecting their name - if they were on Switch I'd have the option to add them as a friend. Not that I would, though. Haha.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Tech101's Avatar
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    I did look up some of those scores on my Switch and there is no way those Sorcerers Lair scores are legit. I find it hard to believe even a billion is possible but maybe there's something I don't know even though I've played that table to death. Even a very good Multiball isn't going to net me that many points.
    Proud member of the Hyna Gang! Keeping pinball alive on the Wii U!

  11. #11
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    On the 5 minute challenge that is.
    Proud member of the Hyna Gang! Keeping pinball alive on the Wii U!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    Ok, after looking at the pics again and then seeing the score on playstation network is exactly the same it does look odd to me. I mean how does one get a precise score of 414,000,000 on two different networks?
    Most likely a user that is part of both leader boards. Even though I can't see PS4 scores I can see PC and Xbox users. I believe you share with Xbox users and possible PC as well. Most likely they're on one of those.
    Proud member of the Hyna Gang! Keeping pinball alive on the Wii U!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech101 View Post
    On the 5 minute challenge that is.
    Totally agree, mate. I've had a few goes on the Sorcerer's Lair 5-minute challenge and haven't been able to get the wizard mode once. That doesn't worry me, but those top 5 scores (at least) are grade-A bullshit. Wizard mode nets you a few hundred million tops, and that's with a good amount of stones, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaz5021 View Post
    Totally agree, mate. I've had a few goes on the Sorcerer's Lair 5-minute challenge and haven't been able to get the wizard mode once. That doesn't worry me, but those top 5 scores (at least) are grade-A bullshit. Wizard mode nets you a few hundred million tops, and that's with a good amount of stones, too.
    I wouldn't even try to get to wizard mode in 5 minutes lol. I would keep spamming the one Multiball where you have to lock the balls near the upper left ramp.
    Proud member of the Hyna Gang! Keeping pinball alive on the Wii U!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaz5021 View Post
    I am here accusing these people of cheating. I can, and I am. What you are correct about, is that I don't know how they have posted those scores, but that isn't the issue. I don't care how they did it. I know how those scores weren't achieved, though - by playing the game normally.
    I don't have a switch but remember playing against you legends on the Wii U! I am in complete agreement with gaz...no possible way, short of a bug/glitch, (which immediately illegitemizes the score) that these scores could be real. I will be very interested in how this occurred, and what Zen can do about it.
    Last edited by steven120566; 02-24-2018 at 05:59 PM.

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    Doesn't FX3 use the same leaderboards for Steam and PS4? Some scores are "hidden" (Steam) because a PS4 player wants to keep them secret. Having the same score on Steam and PS4 would be possible if the leaderboards are really shared.

    Over a billion on Sorcerer's Lair is definitely possible. Even I scored like 700 million (wizard mode can be reached without completing missions and once you are there you get big points).

    There are some cheaters though...but they are easy to spot. A playtime of 0,1 hours and a huge score is not possible for example.
    Players with =PF= in the name are legit (pinball family). So is Coda, Cloudhead, Twrecks, MuddyWolf, Blinky... and pinball guilds such as Lupsclub.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanderL View Post
    Doesn't FX3 use the same leaderboards for Steam and PS4? Some scores are "hidden" (Steam) because a PS4 player wants to keep them secret. Having the same score on Steam and PS4 would be possible if the leaderboards are really shared.

    Over a billion on Sorcerer's Lair is definitely possible. Even I scored like 700 million (wizard mode can be reached without completing missions and once you are there you get big points).

    There are some cheaters though...but they are easy to spot. A playtime of 0,1 hours and a huge score is not possible for example.
    Players with =PF= in the name are legit (pinball family). So is Coda, Cloudhead, Twrecks, MuddyWolf, Blinky... and pinball guilds such as Lupsclub.
    PS4 doesnt show playtime. I wish it did.
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    I don't have a switch but remember playing against you legends on the Wii U! I am in complete agreement with gaz...no possible way, short of a bug/glitch, (which immediately illegitemizes the score) that these scores could be real. I will be very interested in how this occurred, and what Zen can do about it.
    Yeah man, if you ever do get a Switch, let me know so I can add you again. My Switch friend list is full (I think the limit is 300) but I'll make room. I get about 2-3 friend requests a day! All from pinball, I assume people just go through the leaderboards and add friends from there. I've played about 15 tables and have the top score on about half of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeanderL View Post
    Over a billion on Sorcerer's Lair is definitely possible. Even I scored like 700 million (wizard mode can be reached without completing missions and once you are there you get big points).

    There are some cheaters though...but they are easy to spot. A playtime of 0,1 hours and a huge score is not possible for example.
    Players with =PF= in the name are legit (pinball family). So is Coda, Cloudhead, Twrecks, MuddyWolf, Blinky... and pinball guilds such as Lupsclub.
    I can tell you that 24 billion is possible on Sorcerer's Lair. We're discussing the billion-plus scores on the 5-minute challenge, though. Those are definitely dodgy.

    Those players / groups you mentioned all have very impressive scores and I am in no way questioning their legitimacy.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanderL View Post
    Doesn't FX3 use the same leaderboards for Steam and PS4? Some scores are "hidden" (Steam) because a PS4 player wants to keep them secret. Having the same score on Steam and PS4 would be possible if the leaderboards are really shared.

    Over a billion on Sorcerer's Lair is definitely possible. Even I scored like 700 million (wizard mode can be reached without completing missions and once you are there you get big points).

    There are some cheaters though...but they are easy to spot. A playtime of 0,1 hours and a huge score is not possible for example.
    Players with =PF= in the name are legit (pinball family). So is Coda, Cloudhead, Twrecks, MuddyWolf, Blinky... and pinball guilds such as Lupsclub.
    I'm in no way shape or form accusing you of anything nor am I questioning your skills but I sure would like to see a video of you scoring 700 million in 5 minutes. The best score I ever got was about 300 million in one wizard mode and that was with every obsidion collected.

    Now I know there is score boost and all but time would eventually become a factor as I'm pretty sure wizard mode last about 30 to 45 seconds. So you need to do all the modes and complete them in 4 minutes and 15 seconds or so.
    Proud member of the Hyna Gang! Keeping pinball alive on the Wii U!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech101 View Post
    I'm in no way shape or form accusing you of anything nor am I questioning your skills but I sure would like to see a video of you scoring 700 million in 5 minutes. The best score I ever got was about 300 million in one wizard mode and that was with every obsidion collected.

    Now I know there is score boost and all but time would eventually become a factor as I'm pretty sure wizard mode last about 30 to 45 seconds. So you need to do all the modes and complete them in 4 minutes and 15 seconds or so.
    I think they simply missed the part where we were discussing the 5 minute challenge, rather than a normal game. I'm sure we can all agree that a billion in 5 minutes is impossible.

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    I'am agree with you Gaz5021. There're too much cheated scores and we can see a lot of surprising scores on WIzard and superscore leaderboard !

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    Hi !

    In my opinion :

    Sorcerer's Lair : ZombieWizard & YuraWhirlwind are strange (too high scores on 5 minutes - but maybe they find an issue).
    Kthula666, Ardenwolfe, !!!!!!! scores on biolab, excalibur, and V12 are strange : it's impossible to have each scores finishing by 000.000 every time.

    Other scores seems ok to me.

  23. #23
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    Hey Guys,
    I forwarded this to the server managers and they'll check out these interesting scores. Thank you for reporting!

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    I just noticed a nice score on top of Sorcerer’s Lair - the player is named “Hidden” and his/her level is “?”. Not to immediately dismiss this as “cheating”, but is there any explanation for their level being a question mark?

    I think I’m going to “solve” this issue by turning off cross play. As far as I know, Switch scores can’t be / haven’t been “hacked” so at least I’ll know for sure that my peers’ scores are legit. Obviously there’s a bit less competition this way, but Tech’s still there at least

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    i am here for read comment :P

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaz5021 View Post
    Just wondering if Zen is aware of the obvious cheating happening on the leaderboards, and if anything can be done about it.

    It doesn't bother me too much - some of them are easy to spot, and I still have the satisfaction of being the obvious #1 legit score on some tables, but it's still somewhat annoying.

    I've taken some screenshots of the more obvious ones which can be viewed here: https://imgur.com/a/rzx8D

    At the very least, the following users should simply be banned and have their scores erased:

    !!!!!!
    kthula666
    Ardenwolfe

    I can't figure out how one would score multiple billions on Sorcerer's Lair in the 5 minute challenge, so zombiewizard45 and YuraWhirlwind are obviously very sus as well (and that's being generous - I'd be shocked if any of the top 5 scores on that list are legit).

    I'm keen to hear Zen's (and others') thoughts on this issue.

    Is it related to the fact that you can't save your game in tournament mode? Do people do this by manipulating the data sent to the server, on the PC version of the game? The fact that many of these bogus scores are in the even millions says to me it's not a simple case of them backing up their saved game. Having said that, some of the suspicious scores aren't rounded off like that.

    What are the odds that the top score in each Challenge mode of a particular table are round millions? 1 in 10^18? Haha.
    While I wish no one cheated I don’t mind the obvious ones that much because they’re so obvious you can ignore them. For me the real problem with leaderboard scores is there’s no way to tell if they were legitimately obtained during one beginning to end game or if the player is just reloading a saved game every time his score is bested and starting from a point where he already has a score in the billions.
    There should be a leaderboard that just uses scores obtained from tournaments as you can’t save in tournaments therefore can’t back up your game.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter328 View Post
    While I wish no one cheated I don’t mind the obvious ones that much because they’re so obvious you can ignore them. For me the real problem with leaderboard scores is there’s no way to tell if they were legitimately obtained during one beginning to end game or if the player is just reloading a saved game every time his score is bested and starting from a point where he already has a score in the billions.
    There should be a leaderboard that just uses scores obtained from tournaments as you can’t save in tournaments therefore can’t back up your game.
    I would have to disagree. As we all know Zen's tables can be played for hours and I've had games go on for days. There has to be a better way to do it but that save feature has saved my scores many a times considering I'm not the only one using the system.

  28. #28

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    I've had a few sporadic cases where I paused during a 5 minute challenge, and when I unpaused, the clock didn't restart. I've never been able to recreate it consistently though, and it was on a private tournament anyway. (Yes, I quit and restarted to get the clock going again.) Might the accused cheaters be exploiting something like this?

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    I’m really keen to hear the Server Mangers’ take on this issue, particularly the scores / users I mentioned in my first post on this thread, and the user with a question-mark for their level (#1 score on Sorcerer’s Lair, I’m on Switch and it only appears with cross-play on). I would much prefer to have cross-play on, but there must be something that can be done.

  30. #30

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    I always thought some of the scores were beyond achievable, how does it happen? The only glitches I ever encounter are never to my benefit! I get the "defeat" in matchup when I've clearly the higher score or my personal matchup favourite - "problems uploading your score" which always seems to be when I've really struggled to beat my opponent! I play on xbox, should I change my network play settings from "no limitation" to stop this happening?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech101 View Post
    I would have to disagree. As we all know Zen's tables can be played for hours and I've had games go on for days. There has to be a better way to do it but that save feature has saved my scores many a times considering I'm not the only one using the system.
    You misunderstood. No, I have long games and save too and come back to them. That’s completely cool. I’m talking about backing up your save once you’ve hit a high score. Then you finish your game, it gets recorded, right? But then say someone passes you on the leaderboard. Instead of starting from scratch the person just loads his past game from the point where he was already over a billion and still had three balls left and starts from there and then only has to make up the difference. That’s what I was referring to and think is cheating. Or, even worse, they could just be constantly backing it up during one play through. Lose a ball shortly after backing it up? No problem, just load your most recent save and try again. And there’s no way to tell if people are doing that or not. But just knowing that it’s possible makes it likely that at least someone has done it.
    That said, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, it just makes you wonder and I wish it wasn’t possible. I really don’t get the mindset of someone who would cheat just to get their name on a video game leaderboard, especially when they themselves know it doesn’t represent anything because it’s not legit.
    Last edited by hunter328; 04-12-2018 at 05:42 PM.

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    Dear Zen Team,

    Please take a look at the highscore at the table Blade. The surviving-challenge-highscore number 1 from the player kthula666 counts exactly 392.000.000 MIO. It is just really really frustrating that cheating is possible and that kthula666 is known for cheating for more than 2 month now, and you didnt delete his cheat shit highscores? For me it is a challenge to give my best to reach number 1, but if I see those cheats my motivation falls rapidly.

    Sorry to say that, but you have to sort this out quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exFanboy View Post
    Dear Zen Team,

    Please take a look at the highscore at the table Blade. The surviving-challenge-highscore number 1 from the player kthula666 counts exactly 392.000.000 MIO. It is just really really frustrating that cheating is possible and that kthula666 is known for cheating for more than 2 month now, and you didnt delete his cheat shit highscores? For me it is a challenge to give my best to reach number 1, but if I see those cheats my motivation falls rapidly.

    Sorry to say that, but you have to sort this out quickly.
    I feel exactly the same way as exFanboy. These three users at the very least need to be wiped:

    !!!!!!
    kthula666
    Ardenwolfe

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