Cheaters: kthula666, Ardenwolfe and !!!!!!

[TuttiDeLeon]

Hey Guys!

First of all, thanks for your patience!

We could see lots of statistics about the players you were complaining about: Ardenwolfe, kthula666 and !!!!!!, we were also able to see more helpful information about their gaming style and scores. Our biggest concern is that what they actually do during the game is totally normal, we couldn't find any unusual strategy, steps or tricks. The only thing which is extremely strange is their zero ended scores, what you guys also mentioned. It's fair enough to say that it is almost impossible and not realistic to have scores which always end with zeros.

However we haven't found their "trick" yet, how they actually do the score cheating, we are not able to officially prove it.

Our Lead Developer created a whole new team who will work on this case exclusively, and that's not everything: we are also planning to develop our whole "Anti-Cheat System", but it definitely takes more time to make a visible progress.

We would like you to know that we are absolutely aware of this cheating issue's importance. Our whole team, also my Community Manager, Ákos and myself are daily pushing the progress, and trying to get every information what we can communicate for our players' community.

It's not just a problem for us which we have to solve, we are seeing it as a moral issue in our community. For us it's an emotional mission.

I personally feel upset about it, because you guys have been supporting us for so long and we would like to have a game which can provide fair circumstances, where you are able to enjoy the competition without experiencing these kind of unfair situations.

So, just to make it clear for you guys: At the moment we are not able to ban these mentioned users yet, because we still want to observe their behavior. However when we find out how they have these unusual scores we will take the necessary steps, I personally will take care of this.

We highly appreciate your support and your passion for our game.

Again: thanks for your patience guys, we know how it feels waiting for so long to see any progress, and we are truly thankful for you!

Chili

I personally appreciate your response, & thank you guys for taking the steps to ensure the cheating doesn't go unchecked. The problem is that whether you know how they're doing it or not, you can still clearly see that they're cheating, & their scores should be wiped, & a ban enforced. These aren't borderline cases, they're clear cut.

[cantankerous--]

Although I can appreciate that your team is dedicated to investigating the matter and has enough integrity to not just ban the aforementioned players based on the communities combined assumptions of guilt, delaying the removal of clearly questionable scores from the leaderboards hurts your company more than it hurts any of us. I can tell you, I have a number of number 1 scores and it garners me no celebrity or ingame swag whatsoever and being number 2 under a clearly suspicious score would lose me no sleep especially given that everyone on this board is aware of them, however this board and its members only comprise the smallest percentage of your online community and many who do not frequent this board and just see the clearly fake scores week after week, month after month and just think your company does not care. I mean the whole, "I got a number 1" and then checking the leaderboard every day to ensure its still there newness kind of wore off a long time ago for me, but for that guy who plays every day hours and hours to finally get one only to have some schmuck post a bogus score above him and looking at it for seemingly forever kind of sucks big time. If your not going to ban the players at least see that the scores are next to impossible to achieve and delete them so the leaderboards have some integrity and your customers who have supported your company since way before fx3 are assured that you are truly committed to them, otherwise, frankly, it just sounds like the same ol blah, blah, blah to me.

[Tech101]

Although I can appreciate that your team is dedicated to investigating the matter and has enough integrity to not just ban the aforementioned players based on the communities combined assumptions of guilt, delaying the removal of clearly questionable scores from the leaderboards hurts your company more than it hurts any of us. I can tell you, I have a number of number 1 scores and it garners me no celebrity or ingame swag whatsoever and being number 2 under a clearly suspicious score would lose me no sleep especially given that everyone on this board is aware of them, however this board and its members only comprise the smallest percentage of your online community and many who do not frequent this board and just see the clearly fake scores week after week, month after month and just think your company does not care. I mean the whole, "I got a number 1" and then checking the leaderboard every day to ensure its still there newness kind of wore off a long time ago for me, but for that guy who plays every day hours and hours to finally get one only to have some schmuck post a bogus score above him and looking at it for seemingly forever kind of sucks big time. If your not going to ban the players at least see that the scores are next to impossible to achieve and delete them so the leaderboards have some integrity and your customers who have supported your company since way before fx3 are assured that you are truly committed to them, otherwise, frankly, it just sounds like the same ol blah, blah, blah to me.

I agree with all of this. Just because you don't know how they're doing doesn't mean they're not cheating. I do understand you want to know how but figure that out after you remove the scores. Like what was said we are the vocal minority and while most people probably don't care because they will never see the top 10 tons won't even bother after seeing the cheat scores.

[Chili]

Hey Guys!

Thanks for the feedback! As I mentioned in my previous post, the reason we don't want to delete the scores yet is because we would like to observe their behavior.

"It's fair enough to say that it is almost impossible and not realistic to have scores which always end with zeros." That means we are aware that it is not possible to have these kind of scores.

We would like to solve the problem in long-term, not just for now. We can only do this with a conscious strategy where we will find out how they actually do it.

We don't want this to happen again, so that's why it takes more time than expected.

Thanks for your patience again!

Chili

[cantankerous--]

Hey Guys!

Thanks for the feedback! As I mentioned in my previous post, the reason we don't want to delete the scores yet is because we would like to observe their behavior.

"It's fair enough to say that it is almost impossible and not realistic to have scores which always end with zeros." That means we are aware that it is not possible to have these kind of scores.

We would like to solve the problem in long-term, not just for now. We can only do this with a conscious strategy where we will find out how they actually do it.

We don't want this to happen again, so that's why it takes more time than expected.

Thanks for your patience again!

Chili

I really don't see the logic in your thinking. If you delete their scores and they never post another, that's a WIN for the community. If you delete their scores and they repost them, as I predict they will, then that's a WIN for Zen because you now have, I suspect at least, something in place to detect bogus scores and will then understand how it is being done. In either scenario removing the scores does nothing but benefit the community unless of course, you just have no way of detecting the submission of bogus scores. I am curious as to why, if they have this ability why they are posting such obvious fake scores and why they are only doing it to some tables and not others. I hold out the possibility that they are playing legitimately and some odd set up, computer configuration, network error thingy is rounding their scores while posting. If so, the scores are still bogus and need to be removed and if indeed the players are legitimately playing they will reach out to you wondering why????

[steven120566]

I really don't see the logic in your thinking. If you delete their scores and they never post another, that's a WIN for the community. If you delete their scores and they repost them, as I predict they will, then that's a WIN for Zen because you now have, I suspect at least, something in place to detect bogus scores and will then understand how it is being done. In either scenario removing the scores does nothing but benefit the community unless of course, you just have no way of detecting the submission of bogus scores I hold out the possibility that they are playing legitimately and some odd set up, computer configuration, network error thingy is rounding their scores while posting. If so, the scores are still bogus and need to be removed and if indeed the players are legitimately playing they will reach out to you wondering why????

I have edited what cantankerous said, but I agree. I am no world class player, but Tech and cantankerous have pretty compelling points and reasoning as to why they should probably be removed. Particularly the points of "just because you don't know howdoesn't mean cheating is not obvious" and the fact that if a legitimate score goes bye bye, if it was legit, well they will reach out to you.

You guys have built the best pinball game with the best back-end database in the world. Obviously, nobody could have programmed in every possible cheat path. But because it takes a commitment from these legitimately great players to get their scores in there... heck, I work my tail off just to be average. Because of the work of these legit great players, based on all the points made here, I think you probably should correct it by removing blatant cheating.

[gaz5021]

I don’t mind if the bogus scores stay up for a while longer, if it helps in the long-term. I am quite satisfied with Chili’s response, to be honest. I am really keen to hear more information as this develops. Obviously there is some secrecy that needs to maintained, I understand, but it’d be great if we could be kept updated with whatever Zen is happy to tell us.

[SiggR22]

My money is on the cheaters. Unlike Zen, they deliver.

[cantankerous--]

Like I said previously, I can appreciate that Zen is committed to not banning the suspect players without proof of wrong doing or deliberate deception on their part. I mean, why on earth would anyone who has the ability to manipulate the scoreboards do so in such an obvious manner? Even those of you who are adamant that they are cheating must ask yourself this, so, at least to me, giving them the benefit of doubt until such time as undeniable proof exists is a good stance. Now, that being said there can be no question that the scores are not legit. I have played countless tables. Own every single one and been a supporter of Zen since the first release on PS3 and in all that time never once got a score that was all zeroes at the end............not once. The scores are not legit and frankly allowing them to remain when they are clearly not legit is a slap in the face to me and to all your other members who expect a level of integrity to the leaderboards and providing the explanation that you are continuing to investigate how it is being done is just not good enough. Sure, continue investigating, but do so after removing the fake scores. I personally see it as your obligation to me and all your customers to maintain the leaderboards and not take over 3 months to do so.

[TuttiDeLeon]

Like I said previously, I can appreciate that Zen is committed to not banning the suspect players without proof of wrong doing or deliberate deception on their part. I mean, why on earth would anyone who has the ability to manipulate the scoreboards do so in such an obvious manner? Even those of you who are adamant that they are cheating must ask yourself this, so, at least to me, giving them the benefit of doubt until such time as undeniable proof exists is a good stance. Now, that being said there can be no question that the scores are not legit. I have played countless tables. Own every single one and been a supporter of Zen since the first release on PS3 and in all that time never once got a score that was all zeroes at the end............not once. The scores are not legit and frankly allowing them to remain when they are clearly not legit is a slap in the face to me and to all your other members who expect a level of integrity to the leaderboards and providing the explanation that you are continuing to investigate how it is being done is just not good enough. Sure, continue investigating, but do so after removing the fake scores. I personally see it as your obligation to me and all your customers to maintain the leaderboards and not take over 3 months to do so.

It's funny, because they've clearly been removing unobtainable scores from the standard Superscore leaderboard on a near daily basis. B.s. scores go up, Zen take them back down almost as rapidly. I don't see what the issue is with Ardenwolfe, Kthula 666 etc. Also, I do firmly believe after months of blatant, unpunished cheating from these scrubs that it's time to brandish the ban hammer, otherwise, what deterrent is being implemented? Players can log outrageous, bogus scores & the worst that happens is they get removed. Other developers hand out bans for notorious cheats, Zen should be no different.

[cantankerous--]

It's funny, because they've clearly been removing unobtainable scores from the standard Superscore leaderboard on a near daily basis. B.s. scores go up, Zen take them back down almost as rapidly. I don't see what the issue is with Ardenwolfe, Kthula 666 etc. Also, I do firmly believe after months of blatant, unpunished cheating from these scrubs that it's time to brandish the ban hammer, otherwise, what deterrent is being implemented? Players can log outrageous, bogus scores & the worst that happens is they get removed. Other developers hand out bans for notorious cheats, Zen should be no different.

As far as I am aware, and I may very well be wrong, but I believe the entire Superscore debacle is a result of something on Zen's side of it and not as a result of anyone cheating, but your point that erroneous scores have been removed from one board and not another is well taken, and yes, unexplainable to me as well.

[Lord Squeak]

Hey Guys!

Thanks for the feedback! As I mentioned in my previous post, the reason we don't want to delete the scores yet is because we would like to observe their behavior.

"It's fair enough to say that it is almost impossible and not realistic to have scores which always end with zeros." That means we are aware that it is not possible to have these kind of scores.

We would like to solve the problem in long-term, not just for now. We can only do this with a conscious strategy where we will find out how they actually do it.

We don't want this to happen again, so that's why it takes more time than expected.

Thanks for your patience again!

Chili

I see what you are doing, and I kind of agree. You need to be able to observe what they are doing in order to create an automatic anti-cheat.
But one thought occured to me. If you remove their scores, you will probably goad them into posting new scores, meaning the chances of actually catching them in the act increases. As it is now, they already have the top scores, so why bother posting new scores?
I think you should just remove obvious fake scores, because in this case, they will only be posting more scores, which gives you more data to work with.

[Tech101]

What sucks is I have beaten one or 2 of their scores and could probably beat them all but the fact Zen doesn't want to take them down doesn't really give me any motivation to try. I also have a feeling if the scores are taken down they wont repost then. If they were any good they would have scores on every table and just keep taking the number one spot but thats not the case. I almost have the feeling that if they repost the scores the scores will be the exact same numbers.

[cantankerous--]

What sucks is I have beaten one or 2 of their scores and could probably beat them all but the fact Zen doesn't want to take them down doesn't really give me any motivation to try. I also have a feeling if the scores are taken down they wont repost then. If they were any good they would have scores on every table and just keep taking the number one spot but thats not the case. I almost have the feeling that if they repost the scores the scores will be the exact same numbers.

Props for beating any of their scores and good luck beating the rest, but that will change nothing for the honest members who are still below them in rankings. Bogus scores need to be removed no matter Zens motivation for not doing so. They owe it to you and me and every other member who plays honestly, and just for the sake of argument, let's just assume that these members are playing honestly and some sort of network witchcraft is to blame for the scores...................they still are bogus scores and need be deleted whether they be posted by them or you or me. Bogus scores always need to be removed.

[cantankerous--]

As far as your assertion that you could probably beat all of their scores. V12 awaits you Sir