View Poll Results: Community Feeling on full Rule Sheets for tables

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  • Current Rule Sheets are sufficient

    10 58.82%
  • Full Rule Sheets would be nice

    0 0%
  • Full Rule Sheets with labelled table image would be better

    6 35.29%
  • No Rull Sheets required

    1 5.88%
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Thread: Poll on communities feeling on Rule Sheets

  1. #1
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Default Poll on communities feeling on Rule Sheets

    I have kinda been giving it my best shot to convince ZEN that they should make the full rule sheets available for each table. To help the poll (and debate) along I will quoted some relevant sections of my previous posts on this (along with Solitude's feedback on this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
    Here why this feature is good for the Williams game, but isn't necessarily ideal for ours: the Williams tables have all been figured out and mastered years ago, while our tables are all completely new to everyone when they are released. Thus, in our game, there's an opportunity to discover and figure out things for yourself that no one else in the world knows, rather than simply following a well-established recipe for points. In my opinion, that's one of the reasons why the Zen community is a little more lively - people get together to share information and strategies. And the feeling of accomplishment as you learn the ins and outs of a table is greater, because no one held your hand during the process - the rule sheets give general info, but it's up to you to learn the precise details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    Thanks for the feedback and I do understand the point you make but for me I just don't agree. I want somebody to hold my hand , or at least have the hand within reach so that I can grab it when I am feeling lost, desperate and vulnerable....

    The skill for me in pinball (from the perspective of somebody living in South Africa that knows about pinball, but not really having that much access to it, even in pinballs heyday in the 80's and 90's) is to each time I play the table get a little further with regards to achieving the missions etc. - it has very little to do with the actual points for me in the end. I am not good at figuring out what is going on or what I should be doing and I think it has a lot to do with all the information having to be squashed on to a screen; the DMD being in a weird position in relation to your viewing perspective, using a viewing angle that can only attempt to "simulate" a real view and thus not being able to really see (or comprehend ) what is going on or what is happening on a table. I am sure that on a real life table this won't be such an issue and that things will make a whole lot more sense.

    So, please consider making the rule sheets available (and as an aside please consider giving us adjustable views). I have slowly been able to get help for certain missions etc. from other forums and more often than not, things are revealed that I would never have figured out on my own, or if I figured it out it would have been by chance and I wouldn't be able to replicate it again

    Anyway - not having rule sheets will not stop me from playing pinball fx 2 because I really love it, but it would really enhance the experience for me tremendously. Please understand not everybody is or will ever be Pinball Wizards
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    ......

    Lastly, an apologies for the long post, will you please make your rule sheets available for the tables. I get frustrated with figuring out even the simple things such as how to get multipliers on Spiderman - It happens but I still don't know how - I am sure it has a simple explanation - just haven't been able to figure it out!!. I don't have time for trawling forums to get these answers - I'll rather play the game An for those of you that don't believe in rule sheets, just don't use it - but there are plenty of people who will love to have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    What would be really great for me (apart from the actual rule sheet and adjustable views ) is if Zen can make available a high quality labelled (e.g. loop 1) top down image of each table layout where you can clearly see everything on the table. Often times, even with holding X , I can't clearly see where all the holes and loops are etc. e.g. on spiderman shooting with the top left paddle you can shoot it up the ramp, but I had to look plenty of times to make sure if there is an entrance for a loop just above the ramp.
    Please complete the poll (and debate vigorously!!!) so that ZEN can get an idea on what the feeling is towards having complete Rule Sheets available for their excellent game.
    Last edited by Cloda; 12-11-2010 at 09:26 AM. Reason: spelling mistakes

  2. #2
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    I think the current rule sheet is fine, its just that the pictures need to be better. The way some of them are its extremely difficult to know where on the table its actually indicating, and thats on tables where I already know where everything is.

    Having everything explained cheapens the experience imo. Discovering new features and modes is one of the best things about a new table.

    What I suggest is a simple slide show with each explained feature. First picture shows the full table with a big arrow pointing to its location on the table, a second close up picture to show the feature in action, and a third picture to show how the feature should be completed (eg; Pasha multiball lock).
    Last edited by lexandro; 12-11-2010 at 09:35 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexandro View Post
    Having everything explained cheapens the experience imo. Discovering new features and modes is one of the best things about a new table.
    I agree to the point I don't even look at the sheets.

    Table becomes boring when I learn the best way to score and either I do it over and over or intentionally avoid it

  4. #4
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    I like it the way it is. It's nice to have some of the stuff explained so it is easier to get things going.

  5. #5
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    G4 have given the Marvel Tables a 5/5. Nice!

    However, they say this:

    Along those same lines, it can be very hard to figure out every possible thing you can do on a table. While that’s a holdover from the days of actual pinball where learning was the only way you could figure things out, in today’s day and age it sure would be nice to have a tutorial for each table, showing you all of the amazing things you can trigger. You might be missing a simple shot that could make something cool happen, but because you don’t know about it, you might never think to do it.
    ttp://g4tv.com/games/xbox-360/64639/marvel-pinball/review/#ixzz17qXzcx2I

    I disagree that a guide should show "all the amazing things", but I do think a visual guide showing the basics would be very useful.

    And very welcoming for beginners or people who think pinball is random.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Great!!! Thanks for the input... let them cool ZEN people know what us pinball junkies are thinking!!!! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!!

  7. #7
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    I think the current rules sheets are sufficent. They give you a general guide to the main table goals, but give you the chance to figure the ins and outs yourself. I have found that when really desiring to figure out something about the table, your best bet is to head to multiplayer and setting the table score goal pretty high. This will allow you infinte balls and the opportunity to try for anything.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Scotty Canuck's Avatar
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    I think the current rule sheets are fine. They offer enough for beginners, without giving everything away. If you don't want to read them, they aren't rammed down our throats either. I think it's a good balance, which would suit most players.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotty Canuck View Post
    I think the current rule sheets are fine. They offer enough for beginners, without giving everything away. If you don't want to read them, they aren't rammed down our throats either. I think it's a good balance, which would suit most players.
    That is where I, as a beginner (well, hopefully a bit further down the line to a being a whiz!!) disagree with most of the pinball veterans. As a beginner everything is confusing and the things that really frustrated me initially (and on some tables still do) is that the basic concepts of the table is most times not explained in the provided rule sheets (e.g. multiplier on blade, SotD and activating kickback and ball save). For a new player having these clearly explained and then understanding that you can make the game much "safer" by working on keeping them activated allows them (me) the opportunity to survive longer and figure out more of the things that makes the table special. It will also not make any difference to the people that don't want to read them if the rule sheets contain more detail - they still don't have to read them.

    I for one would definitely still like to have full table rules. The challenge for me is not in figuring things out, I don't usually survive long enough on a table to get to that point. So if I have a better idea of what all is possible on a table I can work towards achieving it.... but that's just me.

    I believe ZEN can only benefit by making the tables easier to understand for new players. Not everybody that plays pinball for the first time immediately falls in love with it, you definitely first need to get a feel for it and an appreciation to what the table designer aimed to portray with a particular table. I must admit that for me Pinball Fx just didn't have the "magic" to win over new players. Pinball Fx 2 definitely does and ZEN must use it to their full advantage by making sure they explain the basic things very clearly to beginners.
    Last edited by Cloda; 12-14-2010 at 06:00 AM.

  10. #10
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    Can't agree enough, Cloda.

    And let's remember that nobody is forced to watch a visual guide. You could simply press a button to skip it. Or have it as an option.

    But I really do think it would be a big win for not only new pinballers, but even more experienced players. There's a big difference between explaining the game away, and laying out the basic concepts of a table.

  11. #11

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    Make current rulesheet pictures full screen and add pointing arrows, maybe add some simple animations if arrows aren't enough. As for full rulesheets.. this is pinball, not an encyclopedia. No offence intended, but I rather play than study sheets. For videos there is Youtube, Zen could put some official stuff there (still not giving away everything)

  12. #12
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    At first I thought Zen should release more complete rule sheets. However, I've found that the process of discovery on each table is part of what makes the game fun and makes me want to keep coming back.

    I also think that not explaining everything opens up the game to more user interaction with one another. If Zen explained exactly how to do everything on the tables this would get rid of half the discussions on this message board. I like that Zen have gone out of their way to make their pinball game a social experience as much as a standalone experience. You are encouraged to add friends to build your Wizard score, there is multiplayer - both friendly and competitive, there are tournaments, though I'd love to see more. I love how the screen pops up telling me I've beaten one of my friends high scores. Not giving away all the rules is just another social aspect of the game.

    I do think as time goes by we'll start to see user created FAQs and RuleSheets for the tables. There is even one thread somewhere (I think it's in the Xbox live forum for this game) with links to posts that have to do with table rules. I've created a file that I copy and paste all this info into so that i can review it and look at it. I like that learning the tables is an active process for a group rather than something that is handed to you on a silver platter. Ultimately I think it will give the game greater lasting value and a stronger following.

    OK that's my opinion. I voted to keep it like it is. I like to hear different view points though. If anyone wants to add me to their friend list for this game I'm X Astro68 X
    Last edited by Astro68; 12-19-2010 at 06:46 PM. Reason: delete erroneous title

  13. #13
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Ah well.... I guess I failed in my mission to convince ZEN to make full rule sheets available. The community does not seem to share the same sentiments as I do.

    But I do hope that ZEN will read through the posts in this thread as I think some valid points were made especially with regards to better explaining the basics for each table.

    I will now put my mission to rest and will focus on mastering the tables as best I can.... at least I know that I can always post a question to this community and an answer will be forthcoming... thanks

  14. #14

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    I agree that letting the community explore tables is the best way to do it..it may be frustrating at times, but it would get old fast if everyone knew the same tricks on every table.. great job on giving hints but not everything away Zen.

  15. #15
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    I'm one of those people who found Xenon complicated. These new-fangled video pinball tables can be quite difficult to figure out without a guide.

    So far I've had to wait until someone in the community goes through the effort to write a guide and post it some place like here.

    I'd like to thank those people and encourage them to write as detailed a guide as possible. I like my hand being held!

  16. #16
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    I think the rule sheets as is suffice, they are pretty detailed actually. If I could decide I would ahve them be more explicit and less detailed. What I mean is I would like to know How to activate the mission, explained in detail, but not what the missions are or how to complete them. I think a break down of the differnt spots on the table would be nice, even without an explination of what they do.

    Perhaps unlockable rulesheets, like hit a ceratin score to unlock a certain part, where the highest scoring players get the most detailed rule sheets.

    Also mabey a few key point for each table, honestly I really think the marvel tables where close, if anything to detailed on each mission exlination, although I like knowing how to start them, then you're not missing out on a key feature. Explaine the obscure stuff (like the empire letters on rome) and leave the more intuitive stuff up to the community to figure out.

  17. #17
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    Also keep in mind pinball is a competitive game, leaving out ky scoring opportunities allow the true wizards to emerge. If everyone knew how to get every point the skill factor is litteraly cut in half. A big part of mastering a table is figuring it out. Its why when I posted my guides I origonaly had a disclamer, asking if certain people diddnt want it posted. I just felt it's been long enough with the origonal tables now that anything you havent figured out yet, is more due to obscurity then lack of effort. Somtimes you know how to do somthing but you don't get the "why". At that point it's not like I'm teaching people how to double their score without effort, I'm just offering an explination of whats going on in the table.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    ZEN, please take a look at the following link.

    http://www.sternpinball.com/S-M/SM-P...-SHOT-MAP.html

    This is sort off what I had in mind when I imagined a "high quality labelled top down image" for each table. If each table had such image(s) that you could view, it would clarify things up a lot. I must admit, I still do struggle to always figure out what is "mechanically" happening on a table.

    But as always - please continue the good work. This is just a suggestion of something that I think would enhance the product and the subsequent experience from it for the players.
    Last edited by Cloda; 12-24-2010 at 05:42 AM.

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