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Thread: Vertical monitor: A Pictoral Demonstration

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    Senior Member Phiveball's Avatar
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    Default Vertical monitor: A Pictoral Demonstration

    I like beating a dead horse so I just thought I'd show in pictures a demonstration of how a vertical orientation could possibly benefit PFX.

    This pic is of a mediocre but fun shmup on XBLA called KOF Sky Stage. As with most vertically scrolling shmups the "play field" is in the center of the screen, similar to the playfield in view # 6 on PFX.



    In this image I have rotated my monitor vertically and used the rotation feature in this game. This rotation feature is in almost every vert shmup.



    The pics aren't great, but you can at least see that the objects are much larger and easier to see. So, hopefully this is a feature that Zen will be able to incorporate in the future.
    Last edited by Phiveball; 12-18-2010 at 04:41 AM.

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    Something you're neglecting to acknowledge when comparing Pinball FX 2 to shmups is that many of these games were originally designed for vertical orientation. Sky Stage was built on Taito's Type X hardware (Raiden III/IV, Castle of Shikigami III, Giga Wing Generations, etc.). While a tate mode may seem like an added feature, this is the original orientation for the arcade cabinet. Most ported shmups default to a horizontal view since few console owners use rotating monitors (even fewer have a dedicated, vertical HDTV).

    As Womble explained in one of the other threads, this is not an easy feature to proactively implement. It's unlikely to be included in a patch. I doubt Zen will offer a tate mode in their next pinball title unless there is enough demand (doubtful considering the target audience).
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    Senior Member Phiveball's Avatar
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    Its not that I'm neglecting to acknowledge anything. I don't pretend to know what's involved in making a game or what would be a difficult thing to accomplish. All I see is a feature in one game that I think would be useful in another game. I'll take your word for it that it is not easily accomplished, but I will leave it to Zen to make the decision on what features the want to impliment in future patches and games. Either way, Zen has proven to be a company that listens to their fans, so voicing my opinion only makes sense. Besides, isn't customer feedback the reason they have a message board on their site in the first place?

    I'm starting to get the feeling you have a beef with me and I'm not sure why. So lets be cool, stop the nit picking, and have good conversations about an interst we both obviously have in common.

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    Hey, let's keep the discussion civil and focused on the games and ideas rather than each other. There are some good ideas and good points brought up, but they should be framed in a way that's not condescending to the person you are replying to.

  5. #5

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    I have several pinball games on the Ipod Touch, and some of those allow both orientations. The Pinball Hall of Fame titles do it on the PSP, and those were games that were horizontal only on previous console releases. View 6 is already at the correct aspect ratio - just need to rotate and magnify. Can't be that hard, can it? Saying it couldn't be done in a patch is kinda strange for something that is only downloadable - whether you want to call another version a "patch" or "re-release" is just a matter of semantics or marketing. I can certainly understand if it's considered lower priority due to few people actually using it. I don't have a rotatable monitor, but would probably get one just for this title if the option were available.

  6. #6

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    I'll sign this petition. I've been trying out view 6 but my screen is only around 35 inches.. ..the idea of being able to go Japanese on this game sounds great!

  7. #7

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    About comparing SHMUPs and pinball: with SHMUPs you can actually play the game with "incorrect" orientation. Some years ago I actually played Ikaruga with Dreamcast like that, converting a vertical shooter into horizontal. Worked just fine, I just had to tilt my head to read the score But with pinball, gravity pulling the ball to the side, no way.

    I doubt Zen will ever implement the playfield rotation, unless we get a PC port. Very few connect their game console into a PC monitor.

    This problem will be alleviated somewhat in next generation when get real 1080p in consoles (well, maybe not with Nintendo.. ), then the full view doesn't lose so much resolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAT View Post
    About comparing SHMUPs and pinball: with SHMUPs you can actually play the game with "incorrect" orientation. Some years ago I actually played Ikaruga with Dreamcast like that, converting a vertical shooter into horizontal. Worked just fine, I just had to tilt my head to read the score But with pinball, gravity pulling the ball to the side, no way.

    I doubt Zen will ever implement the playfield rotation, unless we get a PC port. Very few connect their game console into a PC monitor.

    This problem will be alleviated somewhat in next generation when get real 1080p in consoles (well, maybe not with Nintendo.. ), then the full view doesn't lose so much resolution.
    Did you know that Ikaruga is on 360 arcade? I bought it and it has a rotate feature. And just so peeps know a rotate feature for the view is actually pretty darn easy. Practically every desktop PC can do it, and since the 360 is based on PC architecture, its simply a matter of adding it to the game as an option. Its simply a matter of switching the X and Y axis on the output from the display chip.
    Last edited by lexandro; 12-19-2010 at 04:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexandro View Post
    Did you know that Ikaruga is on 360 arcade? I bought it and it has a rotate feature. And just so peeps know a rotate feature for the view is actually pretty darn easy. Practically every desktop PC can do it, and since the 360 is based on PC architecture, its simply a matter of adding it to the game as an option. Its simply a matter of switching the X and Y axis on the output from the display chip.
    Guess Zen have you to count on the do this programming wizardry then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekro Neko View Post
    Guess Zen have you to count on the do this programming wizardry then?
    There is no programming wizardy required. Its a BASIC ability of the graphics chip. Its not like they have to code it from scratch its just a display output option, nothing fancy.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexandro View Post
    Did you know that Ikaruga is on 360 arcade?
    Yes, and I have it, but haven't played it that much. But I have to repeat the same when Radiant Silvergun will be released next year, I'm one of the lucky ones that could play the genuine classic Saturn version all the way through, I believe I maxed out all weapons. The console and game weren't my own, sadly.

    Sorry for offtopic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexandro View Post
    Its simply a matter of switching the X and Y axis on the output from the display chip.
    It's really not. You get no Biolab cookies today.

    Camera and projection settings are made a much higher level.

    The issue is not that Zen can't set a projection matrix and viewport -- of course they could -- rather it's the amount of work involved in designing and retrofitting the entire table experience.

    It's also an issue of whether it's worth doing so, considering how many other things Zen could be doing with their limited time and money. Just because some people want it, doesn't make it viable.

    Rotating an image is a trivial exercise. Designing, implementing and polishing a vertical-orientation for a game with multiple camera modes, is not.

    p.s. people who use the word "easy" when it comes to other people's work, particularly in programming and design, should be shot.
    Last edited by Womble; 12-19-2010 at 11:09 PM.

  13. #13

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    A game that has this X Y feature done well is Raiden Fighters Aces...after seeing how well it works, it makes me wish all shumps I have had it..it's matter of inverting the controller and rotating and adjusting the zoom..other then that, just rotate your monitor(on Raiden you don't have to do that, you can full screen side scroll with inverted axis..just an example). not perfect but it keeps the aspect ratio and allows you to see the flippers well enough to time shots.

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    Although Zen may not do this, there's always visual pinball/pinmame. http://www.vpforums.org/ Very cool community and some seriously good recreations of real tables that will, yes, scale vertically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    It's really not. You get no Biolab cookies today.

    Camera and projection settings are made a much higher level.

    The issue is not that Zen can't set a projection matrix and viewport -- of course they could -- rather it's the amount of work involved in designing and retrofitting the entire table experience.

    It's also an issue of whether it's worth doing so, considering how many other things Zen could be doing with their limited time and money. Just because some people want it, doesn't make it viable.

    Rotating an image is a trivial exercise. Designing, implementing and polishing a vertical-orientation for a game with multiple camera modes, is not.

    p.s. people who use the word "easy" when it comes to other people's work, particularly in programming and design, should be shot.
    Agreed, they'd have to change all the menus too and create whole new layouts. They'd also have to create new views and if it wasn't built in at design it's going to be really difficult to retro fit.

    One of the main problems will be adding the layout functionality after creation and change view ratios. Most engine writers simplify all their equations for speed and use constants (such as aspect ratios) to improve speed. It's possible that they've balanced all their equations for speed and may even have different equations for different aspect ratios.

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    Add me to the list of people interested in a vertical setup... I would build one of those virtual machines specifically for FX2...

    I have tried Virtual PinMAME and it's fun to play real machines but it really isn't up to my standards since I have been spoiled with FX2 and PHoF: tWC.

    The engine Zen built is fantastic and would really be great to have in a pinmame setup. Hopefully they can make this happen...

    +1 for Tate Mode

  17. #17

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    WANT vertical rotation! Zen, perhaps in the sequel?

    Zen, with more and more people going wall-mount on their HDTV's, this is becoming no_brainer. My wall-mount rotates; all you need is more cable-slack.

    Not to mention sub 30" displays are now under $200 for smart shoppers. A quick hack of the base and it'll stand vert.

    BUMP!

  18. #18

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    Changing the view so the camera sits directly above the table so you get a full screen view wouldn't take long to do at all, were taking like an hour max, remember it's a 3d engine so repositioning the camera takes relatively little work. What would take longer probably would be rotating the view 90 degrees clockwise and then overlaying the action cam window etc and all menu screens.

    Adding an extra view could easily be implemented in a very small update for a quick fix, but polishing everyone up would take longer

    Hopefully zen might consider a pc port that would include a 2-3 screen setup, I know this would be a massive success for digital download
    Last edited by lettuce; 01-29-2011 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainofwalrus View Post
    Not to mention sub 30" displays are now under $200 for smart shoppers. A quick hack of the base and it'll stand vert.
    Where??

    (Hopefully some place other than Newegg. Their dead pixel policy sucks.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lettuce View Post
    Hopefully zen might consider a pc port that would include a 2-3 screen setup, I know this would be a massive success for digital download
    It would be huge. PC players love crap like this. If Zen can get a pinball game released on Steam, I guarantee there will be people who buy it simply because of this feature (even if less than 5% use a multimonitor setup--geeks just like to know it's possible).
    Last edited by blue; 01-29-2011 at 11:30 AM.
    They took our pinball machines!
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue;
    It would be huge. PC players love crap like this. If Zen can get a pinball game released on Steam, I guarantee there will be people who buy it simply because of this feature (even if less than 5% use a multimonitor setup--geeks just like to know it's possible).
    I sooo want them to release a pc port of pinball fx 2 for the pc, would be the icing on the cake for my pincab.....

    http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/forum/sh...1&postcount=76

    Please read the whole thread^^^

    See how much time and money I have pulled into this project Zen Studios and I'm not the only one theres 1000's of us, not to mention the rest who would be happy to play a PC port on just a normal 1 screen PC setup

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