Ball Physics

[Ben Logan]

Deep,

Super job so far. I’m an average player. FishTales is getting too easy. I have access to a real one locally and it always presents a challenge. Can you randomize ball interactions with rubbers a bit? Keep the player’s senses sharp by reducing predictability of bounce behavior? I realize this can be taken too far, but can you dail up the “Wild” knob a bit?

Once again, you are doing fantastic work in the physics department, in my opinion. I also love that you’re responsive on the forums (whether it’s a yes or no response, it’s always exciting to hear back when your schedule permits).

[zaphod77]

Does your local one have the lightning flips on it?

I've found it harder to loop the boat ramps on real games without them, but it's easy with them.

[Ben Logan]

Good question, zaphod. Lighting flippers, check!

[deep]

Deep,

Super job so far. I’m an average player. FishTales is getting too easy. I have access to a real one locally and it always presents a challenge. Can you randomize ball interactions with rubbers a bit? Keep the player’s senses sharp by reducing predictability of bounce behavior? I realize this can be taken too far, but can you dail up the “Wild” knob a bit?

Once again, you are doing fantastic work in the physics department, in my opinion. I also love that you’re responsive on the forums (whether it’s a yes or no response, it’s always exciting to hear back when your schedule permits).

Can you randomize ball interactions with rubbers a bit? - Already done it, you don't have to wait long for trying it out I realized after the beta update that it made the control of the ball a bit too easy, I am working on it since to make it as good and real as possible. Thanks for the kind words

[Ben Logan]

Awesome news, Deep. Thanks! I get to play a real FishTales in a local tournament today, so I’ll have that experience fresh in mind when your next version arrives. I know they all play a little differently.

Your great communication is appreciated!

[zaphod77]

I do believe the flipper rubbers should bounce very predictably, and that all the randomization should be before it gets there.

also remember that standups and inline drop targets also need that random factor.

[Ben Logan]

Hey Deep,

I got to try the latest beta (complete with Zen style animated 3D characters, etc.) during my lunch break today. I played for 1/2 an hour total. Are the physics on the animated "fantasy" versions different?

I focused on classic single player this afternoon. I tried both the arcade and tournament versions of FishTales, with the most recently updated beta.

Arcade ball physics seem easier, i.e. less wild and more predictable. I did not miss a single drop catch during 1/2 hour of play. I'm not that good! ;P Rubbers seem as though elasticity has been reduced. Overall, table felt less bouncey and alive than in previous iterations.

Slope on Tournament mode seems reduced -- maybe too much though! It felt too steep before, but could now stand to be raised back up a bit. The new Tournament mode seems to play like the old Arcade mode. I'd love to see the difficulty level increased.

I realize you don't want to make things too difficult for the "casual" player. But, on the Farsight forum there was a big group of people who were pushing for more realism over the years. It took us a while, but we finally just kinda gave up. You could catch (FishTales pun!) all those hardcore "pin-sim advocate" customers if you set up the Tournament mode physics correctly. I mean, I'd personally love for both Arcade and Tournament mode to be realistically difficult. But, as long as one of those two modes feels realistic in terms of appropriately wild ball physics, you guys stand a good chance of capturing that market. Right now Tournament mode is too easy, and Arcade mode is quite a bit too easy.

I played in a real tournament last night with some excellent lifetime players. Some of the real-pin ball times were really short (lasting seconds, not minutes), even among semi-pros. I can play a single game of Zen FishTales right now pretty much until I get bored and exit out of the table. Again, I'm no pro!

Lastly, I think you're doing a wonderful job overall. I really mean it. You have a great eye and mind for this stuff. I can only imagine the kind of math you're doing to simulate real world ball and flipper physics. Thanks for your effort!

[zaphod77]

Here's more feedback.

1) zen mode is pretty tasteful, and it has the powerups and stuff. but i think there should be an option to have zen graphics with arcade physics.
2) autoplunger is buggy on survival and 5 minute challenges. it way underplunges except for the first one. it's fine on one ball challenge (which is oddly enough, the one that needs no cheating. just set rom to give one ball, and no xb.)
3) can you stop that focus back to the plunger?!?! this game has an autoplunger, it doesn't need it! Maybe ONLY focus to it the very first plunge.
4) it just feels wrong playing with powerups.
5) on zen mode we have g e t t o t h e t o p for jackpot! (it slows down the speech. weird)
6) i'm not nearly as dialed in on this new physics as ben here is. flippers are aiming a lot different.

so here's what i would like for options, separately toggleable

1) Zen gfx, vs normal gfx.
2) powerups vs no powerups
3) arcade vs tournament.

i think williams will bitch if you allow powerups without zen. so assuming that, leaderboards should be.

1) powerups+zen gfx+zen physics
2) no powerups+zen gfx + zen physics
3) no powerups+zen gfx+tournament setup.
4) no powerups arcade physics (zen gfx optional)
5) no powerups tournament physics+rules (zen gfx optional)

and yes the fantasy physics are different. currently they have the strongest flippers.

[Ben Logan]

Good feedback from zaphod. Fantasy mode with arcade physics would indeed be a great option.

Played a bunch more. Did you guys increase table friction across arcade and tournament modes, too? Ballspin seems less pronounced. I miss it!

Tournament physcs are growing on me. Starting to understand what you’re going for here, Deep. Still, I’d love to see this current Tournament physics set moved to Arcade mode, and the Tournament settings made more challenging.

[mystman12]

So, I've tried out the beta, and I'm not sure if I'm missing something (I'm seeing people mention different physics setups, I think?) but the physics seem really off to me in this update. I'm launching Fish Tales in classic mode with arcade setup, so I should be getting the realistic physics, right? Basically what I've noticed is

1) The ball is too slow. It feels like it's struggling to move in a lot of cases. The boat ramps on Fish Tales for example feel sluggish now. I'm watching the PAPA tutorial video for Fish Tales for reference and the ball zips through the ramps more quickly. I noticed it seems to take the same amount of time in both to get from one boat shot to another, but that seems to be because in the PAPA video, while the ramp movement is faster, the ball slows down a lot more when it drops from the wireform. In Zen, the ramp speed is a bit slow and the ball keeps a bit too much momentum when dropping from the wireform.
2) Rubbers are incredibly un-bouncy now. I think this is the worst part of the update. Try shooting at the boat in Fish Tales. Every time you miss and hit one of those rubbers, the ball should fly back in your face, but instead it's like they're absorbing all the momentum and just stopping the ball. Another example I've seen is that the ball will sometimes hit a slingshot, not hard enough to activate it, but also won't bounce, like, at all. It just sort of squishes into the rubber without any sort of bounciness whatsoever. Even if the slingshot doesn't go off, it's still a rubber and the ball should still bounce off of it.
3) Post passes aren't really working again...
4) Ball is still way too easy to catch, particularly coming out of orbits. Take Medieval Madness for example. In the previous beta, I complained that the ball was too easy to catch from the plunge as all you had to do was hold the left flipper. The ball would bounce back, roll along the slingshot, and then back down onto the flipper. It was close to being right. Now however, if you do that, the ball literally doesn't even bounce away from the flipper. It ends up bouncing off the flipper into the bottom slingshot post, and then settles nicely and way more quickly than before. Watch a professional play Medieval Madness. They don't just hold the flipper button when the ball comes out of the plunge or the castle moat, because that doesn't work. The way they catch it is by flipping at about the time the ball approaches the flipper to attempt a dead catch. Even if the dead catch isn't perfect, timing the flip in such a way can still lower the momentum of the ball enough to make it catchable. Another thing which might be adding to this issue is that it seems the flipper angles are a bit too high, at least from the videos I'm looking up of the games IRL.
5) I'm guessing the friction is too high or something, because besides some of the things I've already mentioned, sometimes I notice the ball just sort of slow down for seemingly no reason.
6) I'm seeing very little bumper action now, particularly on Fish Tales but also somewhat on Getaway. The ball doesn't seem to get much momentum from bumper hits and seems to just get dragged out of the bumper areas instead of bouncing around in them. Maybe it's because the rubbers are so hard now? In the previous version, going into the bumpers on Fish Tales would result in the ball bouncing around a lot like it real life. Now it's just like... *bump*... *bump*... *bump*... Then it rolls out.
7) Upward nudge strength is still way too powerful.
8) Why was the "press launch to continue" screen removed? That was a really nice feature. If brought back, having a quick restart option from that screen as well would be great.

On the positive side:
1) The remastered versions are a pretty cool addition. I probably won't use the feature much, but it's cool to see. I really love how all the additions are designed to match the art style of the game. Seeing the fisherman from Fish Tales in 3D is pretty awesome! Some of the stuff, like the Doughnut Heaven building over the lock on Getaway, inspired by IRL mods is really cool too. I'm really curious to see what you guys do for Funhouse (We are getting Funhouse, right? )!
2) The mystery award on Fish Tales is now properly randomized which is awesome!
3) I noticed that shots up the middle are now possible, which makes hitting the wrecking ball and castle gate much easier and more accurate to real life!

Overall, I know I'm being pretty negative here, but that's because I want this to be as good as possible and I feel like this update brought about some issues which weren't around before. Who knows, maybe I'm just too used to the physics in the previous version. I'll probably end up going out and playing some pinball tomorrow night, so I'll try and pay extra attention to how those games feel and see how it compares to these.

Also, I'm super excited that the official launch is so soon! I can't wait to get these games on my Switch!

[deep]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I appreciate it because I adjusted the countless properties back and forth SO MUCH that I may not see the differences clearly. Anyways the physics are still work in progress and hopefully I can manage to fix it till the release day.

[zaphod77]

Yeah, since the zen mode was put in (with juiced flippers) the other flippers are weaksauce.

and the slowdown in speech is definitely gfx related. it happesn much more on remaster gfx.it NEVER did that before this update.

zen mode is, well very zen physicsy. you can catch balls after boat ramp shots (!)

but it's also the one where i've backhanded boat ramps, and have a shot at hitting the captive ball when i'm trying to.

i really liked arcade mode before this latest update. i liked it better when balls over halfway don the flippers went up the boat ramps. it's not THAT had to get them up.

but hey, random fish finder now. it doesn't always start with light extra ball anymore.

[allmodcons]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I appreciate it because I adjusted the countless properties back and forth SO MUCH that I may not see the differences clearly. Anyways the physics are still work in progress and hopefully I can manage to fix it till the release day.

Hi Deep,
Thanks again for all the work. We fully understand how difficult it is to tune physics from our VPX experience.

I just want to re-iterate what Ben and AMmystman12 said. The first public beta had a much more lively 'wild ball' which was very close to the real table. The ball seems a lot slower now, and the elasticity seems to be reduced too much. I also preferred a steeper slope for tournament mode.

Us hardcore players really want super challenging gameplay like a real table. Unfortunately some people in the various forums judge the physics on how high they can score which isn't the criteria to use as a benchmark . Really looking forward to your next update. Cheers


Edit: As much as I would like to see this released, I feel that now the release date has been set it might not allow for enough further tweaks/iterations, so hopefully the physics can still be tweaked after the first official release?

[deep]

As much as I would like to see this released, I feel that now the release date has been set it might not allow for enough further tweaks/iterations, so hopefully the physics can still be tweaked after the first official release?

I will do my best to iron out everything for launch. Yes the adjustments can be made after launch as well, hopefully it won't be necessary

[foofoorabbit]

I will do my best to iron out everything for launch. Yes the adjustments can be made after launch as well, hopefully it won't be necessary

I don’t know how much work you we need to do but I think allowing things that aren’t solid walls some give (flippers, stand-up and drop-down targets) like hitting a captive ball or other balls during multiballs (only less so) would do a lot to the randomization of ball movement. You can tell in Fish Tales that a lot of the ball’s energy is transfered to the captive ball. The same should happen, albeit to a much lesser degree, with targets and flippers that are up.

The energy transfer from the ball to flippers that are up and targets should remove some ball momentum and (because the flipper or target has moved slightly from the hit) deflect the ball in a slightly less predictable way (not by much but enough that players can’t exploit the physics to make the same shots over and over again with confidence). It would be a very subtle difference that would go a long way to making the physics feel authentic to real life.

Can the targets “act” as mostly immovable captive balls or is this too large of a change to implement before Oct 9th?

[mystman12]

Okay, I'm really confused now. Can someone explain what the difference between "Single Player" and "Classic Single Player" is supposed to be? Because after further testing, "Single Player" feels much better to me, but I'm not sure what the difference is supposed to be. The ball doesn't seem so slow, I can backhand the boat shots, and the rubbers even seem a little bit bouncier. It doesn't feel like Zen's fantasy physics though, which is what I though "Single Player" was for.

[Pinballwiz45b]

Okay, I'm really confused now. Can someone explain what the difference between "Single Player" and "Classic Single Player" is supposed to be? Because after further testing, "Single Player" feels much better to me, but I'm not sure what the difference is supposed to be. The ball doesn't seem so slow, I can backhand the boat shots, and the rubbers even seem a little bit bouncier. It doesn't feel like Zen's fantasy physics though, which is what I though "Single Player" was for.

"Single Player" is the default Zen setup, catering more for the easier crowds. Includes powerups.

"Classic Single Player" is the simulation mode.

"Tournament Mode" dials the difficulty up.

Each of these can swap between the Classic look and the Remastered look without any changes to the physics.

[MuddyWolf_Beta]

I hope you still got the physics from the previous beta stored away somewhere because they felt/played so much better, at least in Arcade mode.

The ball moves slower, almost sluggish now it seems. It's hard to put into words but the physics were more 'exciting' in the previous beta.
Personally I thought you had it almost nailed. Maybe you're tweaking too much in your quest for perfection

Thanks for all your hard work and dedication though.

[sliderpoint]

Welp, the other folks have already replied about the physics and I am in agreement as well.

So on the other side I will say that the Zen "single player" is blasphemous garbage! It is also really well executed and looks great. Seems to be a great cross-over between the fantasy and simulation (visually). I was trying to find an old post I made 4 or 5 years ago where I posted a request for this exact scenario. Use the real rom and table layout but add the Zen stuff (like MM with actual castle destruction). Couldn't find it anywhere. I'm sure Barbie remembers... right...? She doesn't post much and remembers them ALL right? LOL.

Anyways, thanks for your continued efforts!

-Mike

Edit: except camera angles. You gotta do something with the camera angles and ability to lock them down! so painful...

[mystman12]

"Single Player" is the default Zen setup, catering more for the easier crowds. Includes powerups.

"Classic Single Player" is the simulation mode.

"Tournament Mode" dials the difficulty up.

Each of these can swap between the Classic look and the Remastered look without any changes to the physics.

Thanks, that's what I figured, but just wanted to make sure. It's strange, the Zen mode doesn't immediately feel like Zen physics like Sorcerer's Layer does.

[zaphod77]

as i said. catch balls after shooting the boat ramp with a hold trap. Only in Zen mode.

except for the bugs i reported, zen mode is great.

but the other two are weaksauce now. the flippers aimed right in arcade for me in the previous beta before that, even though backhanding the boat ramp was unreasonably difficult. and the ball just dies too much. something bad happened to classic when zen got put in.

[Moosebox]

Yes, something doesn't feel quite right about 'classic' mode anymore. Everything seemed like it was going in the right direction until this last update, seems like a step backwards to me.

[Ben Logan]

Deep,

I hope it's ok to copy and paste these suggestions from another thread I created entitled "Pinball Simulation vs. Fantasy Pinball." Just wanted to make sure you saw it, as this is mainly your area of expertise:

Zen Mode:
* Give the giant Zen fanbase what Zen knows works: Fantasy physics and 3D animated characters. Fun stuff. Long ball times. See all the modes! Nothing wrong with this “pinball as video game” approach for people who aren’t used to the “rigor” of real pinball.

Arcade Mode:
* Real world physics, with a casual real pinball player setup. You find this kind of setup in a pizza parlor (versus a barcade that caters to Pinheads, like Coin Op in Sacramento, Ca. for example). Gentler slope, rubbers that are allowed to age a bit, playfield that isn’t waxed weekly. Still — this is pinball simulation. It’s a challenge to keep that wild ball under control. New players will have to work a bit to start a multi ball for example, but aren’t frustrated by immediate drains. This mode should still cater to “real pinball fans” (Zen mode is always there if it’s too frustrating).

Tournament Mode:
* Win over all of us real world pinball players, who also happen to love pinball simulation. We hang out in pinball bars, go to conventions, listen to countless pinball podcasts, watch PAPA videos endlessly to improve our game, etc. Steeper slope (but not so steep as to suggest a giant magnet in the center drain). Bouncier rubbers. Missed shots are much more likely to result in center or outlane drains. Naturally shorter ball times.

[tiltowait]

Just tried a couple of quick rounds on the latest update.

* The ball feels a lot more wild now, which is an improvement.
* Trap and hold the ball, then release the flipper. The ball will inexplicably jump upward.
* Post passes are very iffy, to the point that I wouldn't attempt them.

[Ben Logan]

Did Zen release an updated beta today (9/19)?

I hope so -- just read this on Steam today: The beta will conclude on September 24, 2018.

Crunchtime for you, Deep!

[allmodcons]

Did Zen release an updated beta today (9/19)?

I hope so -- just read this on Steam today: The beta will conclude on September 24, 2018.

Crunchtime for you, Deep!

They sure did
https://steamcommunity.com/app/44212...5524699509776/

[mystman12]

Okay, I just tried out Beta4, and this one feels pretty fantastic! Whereas with beta3 I a had an unsure feeling when I tried it, I had a big grin on my face when I started 4!

1. Speed feels great. I would honestly rather the ball go too fast occasionally than too slow all the time, and I feel moments when the ball goes too fast a pretty rare now anyways.
2. Rubbers are much bouncier now and feel great. The ball can really bounce around now which not only makes things harder (Which is good), but also does happen IRL.
3. Boat ramp is easier to hit again, but it doesn't feel too easy and missing it can be really punishing as the rubbers now really bounce the ball around which helps balance the shot. The boat ramps have always been some of the easier shots in pinball anyways from my experience.
4. Upward nudge is still too powerful but greatly improved. At one point I did an upward nudge while the ball was bouncing around the outlane and it just went berserk. In real life, upward nudges are incredibly light, but when done while the ball is against an outlane rubber can be enough the gently bounce it out.
5. Ball now loses more momentum when dropping from the boat ramp wireforms which is good.

My only complaint with the physics is that the shooting angles still seem kind of weird. Boat backhand is impossible, and you can't really hit the captive ball coming out of a ramp shot either. It makes me worried that hitting the wrecking ball in Junkyard or the castle in Medieval Madness will be way too hard, as those shots are far back and straight up the middle. Is there any way to test the other tables with the arcade physics? I noticed there are two different icons for each of the other games on the menu, but both seem to have Zen physics.

Anyways, I honestly think how it is now is really, really good! The ball feels wild again! I think the only thing that really still needs any sort of tweaking is the flippers. I'm not sure exactly what tweaks need to be made, just that shots more up the middle need to be a bit more makeable I think.

[foofoorabbit]

Knowing that Deep is working for Zen gives me a deep zen feeling.

He’s done so much in so little time... I have total confidence that the Williams/Bally tables will all feel and play great.

And Zen has an excellent team of 2D and 3D artists. Well done, Zen Studios, well done.

[mystman12]

Okay, I've played a bit more and I have a few more thoughts.

1. The boat ramp is harder to hit than I initially thought, which is good! Feels like a great balance IMHO. It's pretty tight and fairly easy to miss, but not too hard and it doesn't feel like I'm failing shots because the flippers are weak or anything like that.
2. I'm noticing a good amount of variation off of the plunge. Again, this is really good to see!

This is definitely my favorite version of the beta so far!

[allmodcons]

Okay, I've played a bit more and I have a few more thoughts.

1. The boat ramp is harder to hit than I initially thought, which is good! Feels like a great balance IMHO. It's pretty tight and fairly easy to miss, but not too hard and it doesn't feel like I'm failing shots because the flippers are weak or anything like that.
2. I'm noticing a good amount of variation off of the plunge. Again, this is really good to see!

This is definitely my favorite version of the beta so far!

Same for me. This is feeling a lot more like a real table which is brilliant. I am not sure, but maybe the flippers could be a touch weaker?

[zaphod77]

i ahve been able to hit the captive ball following a boat ramp a few times.

its' much harder to do anything off of the plunge. took ages to get a clean fastcast.

in zen mode i'm getting bounceouts on the jackpot saucer on super high speed shots. these should be hacked around in zen physics mode so they do not happen.

rewind is.. glitchy. it rewinds ultra fast, and even faster when vsunc is off, and if i hold the button donw it sometimes uses the entire rewind bar and rewinds way too far.

[Ben Logan]

Deep,

Major progress in the right direction with this latest beta (released on 9/19/18). I haven't had time to play around with the Zen mode, so I can't comment there (except to say the animations are a neat and fun option).

Some feedback on FishTales:

Arcade Mode:
The bounce is back. That's great! Table friction and slope seem to have been optimized as well. Love what you've done here. One note regarding bounce off flippers: The "micro" bounces are great -- when the ball is traveling at low velocity, say from around lower-mid playfield, the bounce is very realistic. When the ball is traveling at high velocity, however, we're getting too much bounce. For example, on launch or when the ball travels the right loop from a loop shot, the bounce off the left flipper sends the ball up table almost mid-playfield. Can you adjust the elasticity in such a way as to keep the flipper bounce the way it is at low velocity, but reduce the bounce at higher velocity? In real pinball, my perception is that once a certain speed threshold is reached, flipper rubbers tend to absorb more of the ball's energy.

Captive ball: The captive ball is too hard to hit. It's a dangerous shot on the real machine, but the gap on you guys' version feels even tighter / narrower. Also, the main ball should transfer more energy to the captive ball. As it stands now, you really need to nail it perfectly to send the captive ball up to the stand-up target.

Tournament Mode:
At first I was thinking slope is still set too high. But, after playing around a bit, I think it's pretty darn close to ideal. Interestingly, the "super bounce" that the ball gets off the left flipper on launch or when traveling the right loop (described above) isn't as much of a problem in tournament mode.

You're doing a fantastic job, Deep! So glad you guys are including three levels of difficulty. Should be something for everyone with this upcoming release in terms of ball physics. Way to listen to the fans and respond accordingly!

[zaphod77]

i think the flippers need to angle the ball up a lil more in tournament mode. fairly often it's literally impossible to shot a boat ramp after shooting another one. they often shoot wide despite all efforts.