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Thread: What do you think after playing the new physics tables and coming back to Zen?

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    Default What do you think after playing the new physics tables and coming back to Zen?

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    Finally got to run through the tables tonight. Really thrilled with them. I have hours (and hours) on each of these tables on PBA and I think ZEN pretty much nailed them. The only complaint I have is the poor sound sampling on Medieval Madness. The music and feature sounds are mono (stereo in PBA) and rather muffled. If you compare them to PBA, they quite flat. I hope that Zen will fix that. Otherwise, really, really good. Keep it up ZEN! I found a permanent home here now!

    -Ski

    p.s. The only other observation I have is that the tables seem a bit flatter than in PBA. I think PBA kept the aspect ratio closer to the orginal and didn't worry about filling the entire screen with the table. I prefer the PBA approach better, but I understand that they probably wanted them to be consistent with the rest of the tables.....

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    Indeed, I like everything about the Williams tables except the sound. Seems to be of less quality compared to the original Zen tables.
    I'm also hoping they'll fix that.

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    Just had a few goes of each mode on Fish Tales. I only have the free table as I'm waiting to see if they bring the Williams tables to PSVR before sinking money into them. The difficulty and speed of Arcade and Tournament settings reminds me of how bad I suck at pinball in real life and my scores were probably comparable in the few very short games I played. That's a good thing though. I remember my local pub having Fish Tales about 25 years ago and I never sank much money into it because 50p only lasted me a couple of minutes (in the days when a pint was £1) but now I can learn how to get good even with the added difficulty. Closest I'll get to playing real pinball on a regular basis as there aren't many real tables near me.

    Switched to one of the Marvel Zen tables when I'd finished and the difference was night and day. It's like playing pinball with a beach ball where you can keep a game going for hours. Don't think I'll play much of the Zen tables unless they add the new Classic Physics to them where feasible.

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    Both physics have their place imo just depends on what mood you are in, what you want from the game.So far i have played the Zen Williams tables on Classic Single Player Tournament Setup.I'm not entirely sure but i believe that is the highest difficulty setting.And that is how i want my Williams tables to be because i want those tables to kick my ass as much as possible as do the actual tables in reality.
    With the Zen Original tables i don't mind the "unrealistic" ball physics because the tables are designed and feel right that way.I don't mind switching back between both physics/games Zen Originals/Zen Williams, actually enjoy it.
    Last edited by ALH2012; 10-10-2018 at 12:42 PM.

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    The physics are fantastic! The most realistic physics in a pinball sim, imo. I just think the cabinet mode is lacking right now. A good fixed angle would be ideal. Or just give us a way to completely control and tweak the camera in cabinet mode. Then I will never go back to TPA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    So far i have played the Zen Williams tables on Classic Single Player Tournament Setup.I'm not entirely sure but i believe that is the highest difficulty setting.
    That seems to be correct. This is what I read on the Zen FB page re Arcade vs Tournament setting:
    Tournament setting uses the competition rules of the International Flipper Pinball Association. To name a few: table pitch is higher making the ball move much faster, there are no extra balls, tilt warning are more sensitive. You can find out a lot about pinball leagues and rules here: https://www.ifpapinball.com/rules/
    XBL GT - JaySTeeY
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaySTeeY View Post
    That seems to be correct. This is what I read on the Zen FB page re Arcade vs Tournament setting:
    Tournament setting uses the competition rules of the International Flipper Pinball Association. To name a few: table pitch is higher making the ball move much faster, there are no extra balls, tilt warning are more sensitive. You can find out a lot about pinball leagues and rules here: https://www.ifpapinball.com/rules/
    Ok.Thx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincroutons View Post
    The physics are fantastic! The most realistic physics in a pinball sim, imo. I just think the cabinet mode is lacking right now. A good fixed angle would be ideal. Or just give us a way to completely control and tweak the camera in cabinet mode. Then I will never go back to TPA.
    I am confused with this statement. You DO have control of the camera in cabinet mode. Classic single player locks the table and you can adjust the angle of the table in the fixed position. The standard single player mode has the graphical animations and the zoom camera enabled. No, ZEN nailed it!

    -Ski

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    nice to hear,what are you playing on, console/steam?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamski View Post
    I am confused with this statement. You DO have control of the camera in cabinet mode. Classic single player locks the table and you can adjust the angle of the table in the fixed position. The standard single player mode has the graphical animations and the zoom camera enabled. No, ZEN nailed it!

    -Ski
    How are you doing this? Classic Single Player in cabinet mode with portrait orientation still has the same exact limited presets for the cameras here, and only 1/1w/2/8 are 'locked' - the rest move dynamically, same as before. And view 8 in portrait orientation still has that terrible squashed and unnatural orthographic-ish perspective. I do not understand how that made it from beta to release.
    Last edited by ImperiousStout; 10-11-2018 at 04:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M!chel View Post
    Indeed, I like everything about the Williams tables except the sound. Seems to be of less quality compared to the original Zen tables.
    I'm also hoping they'll fix that.
    The sound is authentic from the ROM software of the original tables, so there is nothing to fix.

    Also real pinball tables usually have a much better consistency in sound design than Zen tables, I would say that sound is Zen's biggest weakpoint, especially the music.

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    Hello all

    Sorry for my english
    New tables are great and i hope playing many Williams tables via Zen in the futur.

    I just notice one point i dont like. When you shake the table UP, the cam is leveling up and you lost eyes on ball.
    You need to fix it please

    Thanks

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    To me the new physics are so thrilling that I consider this update to be a kind of Pinball FX 3.5... until Pinball FX 4(K) is out, that is

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    I love it, not much more needs to be said :P

    On a (personal) side note: One can finally play "normal" 3 ball rounds of "zen tables" without risking having to sit through hours before finishing a game. This is what I have always dreamed of since my 9 hour session in Secrets of the deep that got me burned out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiForce View Post
    I love it, not much more needs to be said :P

    On a (personal) side note: One can finally play "normal" 3 ball rounds of "zen tables" without risking having to sit through hours before finishing a game. This is what I have always dreamed of since my 9 hour session in Secrets of the deep that got me burned out.
    Haha... that is exactly how I feel about it. I stopped playing because I literally didn't have the time to play for longer than an hour every couple of days. My longest game was on Paranormal where on-off the game lasted for more than 24 hours of actual playtime! After that, there were many tables were a good score would last for 4 - 6 hours e.g. Sorcerer's Lair and Ms. Splosion Man. Then there were tables where a good game last for about 2 - 3 hours such as Fantastic Four. People tend to forget that the pack of four original Pinball FX2 tables were brilliant and not all that easy as the design mindset was still more on real life table layout. Rome is tough (thinking about it, this table would probably play very well with Deep / classic arcade physics) and playing for longer than an hour is rare. Pasha is beautiful and even my best games (which lasted much longer than a standard game) were maybe 2 hours long. Similar so with Biolab (which has the original and probably still best table guide) and Secrets of the Deep (even though you could carefully and painstakingly score big and play longer on both with multi-ball).

    As an aside, something I wished for, for a long time, as I believe it will change the complexity and approach to playing the tables is if the leaderboards and / or tournaments could capture and be calculated on more information. Call it a True-skill leaderboard if you may where basically not just the highest score is top of the leaderboard but rather the highest score conditional on other table goals e.g. wizard modes completed. This would avoid spamming certain modes and would encourage people to play a table to its fullest and take more risk. Perfect examples of tables where this would lead to much more interesting games are just about all the tables I mentioned above (especially Fantastic 4, Pasha, Biolab and Ms. Splosion Man). Anyway, this has been on my daydream list for many years and the suggestions on this in this post I made was conjured up in one of those daydreams during a long trail run. As always, I hope somebody that can do something about it take note

    Here is my attempt at an one-liner (adapted from my original post on this) to convey the idea:

    True-skill leaderboard: depending on the table it is a combination score calculated from a players high-score ranked by and conditional on the total modes/missions completed and/or the amount of times you have completed the wizard mode.
    Last edited by Cloda; 10-12-2018 at 03:13 PM.
    Williams Pinball: Classic Arcade scores (Wizard Mode and/or Achievement)

    FT - 241.1M (1); TGW - 684.6M (1); JY - 99.7M (1); MM - 376M (1)

    AFM - 10 162.2M (0); BR - 41M (1); PZ - 37.8M (1)

    Cloda's somewhat vain and sort of self-indulgent thread

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    May be in the minority here.

    The new physics are what they are, and I do like them on the Williams group of real table recreations. But I think Zen had the physics down just great ever since FX2. Their library of tables was excellent before! Their physics was excellent before as well. I do not want to see them abandon their standard for a few people's infatuation with the "new" physics.

    People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.

    The physics that they programmed into their original 70 some FX 3 tables should not be changed. If they are making real table recreations, or even new original tables, and want to try to improve the physics, that's fine. Just don't change what has been working well for a decade.
    Last edited by steven120566; 10-12-2018 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    May be in the minority here.

    The new physics are what they are, but I think Zen had the physics down just great ever since FX2. Their library of tables was excellent before! Their physics was excellent before as well. I do not want to see them abandon their standard for a few people's infatuation with the "new" physics.

    People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.

    The physics that they programmed into their original 70 some FX 3 tables should not be changed. If they are creating real table recreations, and want to try to improve the physics, that's fine. Just don't change what has been working well for a decade
    Adding something doesn't mean you have to remove something else.

    The physics on the zen tables fits the tables and I think everyone agrees on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.
    Part of that is no doubt due to the Zen physics still being the default / first option on all those tables. You have to deliberately opt into the arcade / simulation physics, and it's extremely confusing UI design because the 'Classic Single Player' mode means completely different things for Zen & Williams tables. They added some description text but it's still not as obvious and clear as it could and should be with 'Classic Single Player' being an inconsistent variable for the entire game.


    Quote Originally Posted by MultiForce View Post
    Adding something doesn't mean you have to remove something else.

    The physics on the zen tables fits the tables and I think everyone agrees on that.
    Absolutely correct on both points.
    Last edited by ImperiousStout; 10-12-2018 at 03:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousStout View Post
    Part of that is no doubt due to the Zen physics still being the default / first option on all those tables. You have to deliberately opt into the arcade / simulation physics, and it's extremely confusing UI design because the 'Classic Single Player' mode means completely different things for Zen & Williams tables. They added some description text but it's still not as obvious and clear as it could and should be with 'Classic Single Player' being an inconsistent variable for the entire game.




    Absolutely correct on both points.
    Ditto, Ditto, and Ditto guys. Although I do prefer the zen physics as they had evolved prior to their foray into Williams, at the same time, I like having that option with them. What I think I am seeing is like 3 physics blueprints per table with these new ones. Even though I won't opt for the more difficult ones very often. Heck as long as they want to maintain leaderboard consistency for three versions of the same table, I truly have no worries My concern must have been in thinking they were going to go with the trend as making the curent standard more difficult... but there can be as many levels of leaderboards as they want as long as they keep the average players like me in mind for one of them.
    Last edited by steven120566; 10-12-2018 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    May be in the minority here.

    The new physics are what they are, and I do like them on the Williams group of real table recreations. But I think Zen had the physics down just great ever since FX2. Their library of tables was excellent before! Their physics was excellent before as well. I do not want to see them abandon their standard for a few people's infatuation with the "new" physics.

    People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.

    The physics that they programmed into their original 70 some FX 3 tables should not be changed. If they are making real table recreations, or even new original tables, and want to try to improve the physics, that's fine. Just don't change what has been working well for a decade.
    Wow. Them is strong words there. As one of those "few" players, the new physics are what for many of us out there, what real pinball is all about. I think that ZEN should be applauded for giving us "infatuated" players a new home and working both sides of the table. Perhaps one day, you too will appreciate what the arcade tables offer.

    I personally always had a problem with the FX physics model that pushed me back to PBA. The ball always feels plastic and the shots seem scripted. This is after many years of playing pinball on the computer going all of the way back to Pinball Dreams on the Amiga. I never feel that FX tested my skill but rather my patience. This is why you have tables being played for over 24 hours..... I think there is room for both of us in FX3.

    -Ski

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    I think everyone agrees on asking Zen to make both modes available for all tables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamski View Post
    I think there is room for both of us in FX3.

    -Ski
    Yeah, I agree with you, if this app can offer that variation... and it does appear that it can do that, then that's all for the better. I just was concerned that they may change what has worked well for them for so long. But in retrospect, what you guys are asking for is simply an option to have in the game, not a redesign... I stand corrected

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    Yeah, I agree with you, if this app can offer that variation... and it does appear that it can do that, then that's all for the better. I just was concerned that they may change what has worked well for them for so long. But in retrospect, what you guys are asking for is simply an option to have in the game, not a redesign... I stand corrected
    Exactly. I created a thread dedicated to this question, where Zen can keep us in touch in the future.
    https://forum.zenstudios.com/showthr...r-other-tables

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamski View Post
    Finally got to run through the tables tonight. Really thrilled with them. I have hours (and hours) on each of these tables on PBA and I think ZEN pretty much nailed them. The only complaint I have is the poor sound sampling on Medieval Madness. The music and feature sounds are mono (stereo in PBA) and rather muffled. If you compare them to PBA, they quite flat. I hope that Zen will fix that. Otherwise, really, really good. Keep it up ZEN! I found a permanent home here now!

    -Ski

    p.s. The only other observation I have is that the tables seem a bit flatter than in PBA. I think PBA kept the aspect ratio closer to the orginal and didn't worry about filling the entire screen with the table. I prefer the PBA approach better, but I understand that they probably wanted them to be consistent with the rest of the tables.....
    That is the biggest complaint that I have in this bundle is there is not a view to have that has the wider aspect ratio to see and read all the table in. It is like the present multiball mode in FX3.......very tall and narrow and not consistent in view 3 they have in FX3 on XBOX1. And I too, do not like the muffled audio.

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    I really like them. The physics feel good.

    But is there a place were I can bring up weak spots on one of the tabes which is not exactly a bug?

    90% of all ball losses in fishtales happen if the ball comes down from the right lane. on one point it makes some kind of annatural move. the result is that many time it comes down right at the middle of the flippers.

    this seem to be not realistic. i own the real table and, at least there, nothing like this is happening. really frustrating.
    Last edited by FRAQATTAQ; 10-14-2018 at 12:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FRAQATTAQ View Post
    90% of all ball losses in fishtales happen if the ball comes down from the right lane. on one point it makes some kind of annatural move. the result is that many time it comes down right at the middle of the flippers.
    this seem to be not realistic. i own the real table and, at least there, nothing like this is happening. really frustrating.
    This is not normal. I was thinking Zen would have made a meticulous comparaison to the real tables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    Haha... that is exactly how I feel about it. I stopped playing because I literally didn't have the time to play for longer than an hour every couple of days. My longest game was on Paranormal where on-off the game lasted for more than 24 hours of actual playtime! After that, there were many tables were a good score would last for 4 - 6 hours e.g. Sorcerer's Lair and Ms. Splosion Man. Then there were tables where a good game last for about 2 - 3 hours such as Fantastic Four. People tend to forget that the pack of four original Pinball FX2 tables were brilliant and not all that easy as the design mindset was still more on real life table layout. Rome is tough (thinking about it, this table would probably play very well with Deep / classic arcade physics) and playing for longer than an hour is rare. Pasha is beautiful and even my best games (which lasted much longer than a standard game) were maybe 2 hours long. Similar so with Biolab (which has the original and probably still best table guide) and Secrets of the Deep (even though you could carefully and painstakingly score big and play longer on both with multi-ball).
    I completely agree with you. This was always my beef with Zen tables. Games would get really long and grindy, and that always pushed me back to PBA.

    Bringing new physics to the old tables would not achieve anything, since the tables have grindy goals with long games in mind. I wish zen would make a pack of original designed tables inspired with arcade physics in mind. I would love it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuySan View Post
    I completely agree with you. This was always my beef with Zen tables. Games would get really long and grindy, and that always pushed me back to PBA.

    Bringing new physics to the old tables would not achieve anything, since the tables have grindy goals with long games in mind. I wish zen would make a pack of original designed tables inspired with arcade physics in mind. I would love it.
    It would be awesome if Zen could create their own originals with classic single player physics but I would say that is something that they should look at much later. For now, bringing a few new Williams tables every now and then and then Zen originals with Zen physics (or at least other IP's - sorry Zen, I'm tired of all the Star Wars / Marvel stuff) in-between will be more than enough (for my budget and general life balance and productivity as well ).

    I do feel though that some of the original Zen tables will play really well with arcade single player physics (as I mentioned in my previous response - the FX2 release tables especially Rome and Pasha) as they were designed more with real table physics and layout in mind. It was only later one that tables moved further away from real life dimensions and design.
    Last edited by Cloda; 10-16-2018 at 04:36 AM.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    I do feel though that some of the original Zen tables will play really well with Zen physics (as I mentioned in my previous response - the FX2 release tables especially Rome and Pasha) as they were designed more with real table physics and layout in mind. It was only later one that tables moved further away from real life dimensions and physics.
    Cloda is perfectly right on this. Earth Defense, Excalibur, Rome, Pasha, Secrets of the Deep, Biolab, were all excellent tables which were considerably more arcade-oriented. It would not be senseless at all to implement new physics for them. Even Ironman or Blade would surely be enjoyable with this option.

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    Anyone remember Rocky & Bullwinkle? That was hardcore. Shame it got delisted, it might have made for a good fit with the new physics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Cloda is perfectly right on this. Earth Defense, Excalibur, Rome, Pasha, Secrets of the Deep, Biolab, were all excellent tables which were considerably more arcade-oriented. It would not be senseless at all to implement new physics for them. Even Ironman or Blade would surely be enjoyable with this option.
    I don't think the tables would play right with the new physics to be honest. They were specifically made for the FX physics model. You plop the real physics model on them and I bet a ton of issues pop up, i.e., flipper angles, rebounds into the drain, weird behavior with the 3d models, etc......

    -Ski

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamski View Post
    I don't think the tables would play right with the new physics to be honest. They were specifically made for the FX physics model. You plop the real physics model on them and I bet a ton of issues pop up, i.e., flipper angles, rebounds into the drain, weird behavior with the 3d models, etc......

    -Ski
    All we are saying is that some older, more traditional layout tables will easier and more naturally lend themselves to being adapted to the real physics. Zen is already showing it is possible to tweak a table to run with different physics by having a form of the original zen physics on the Williams tables as an option along with the classic arcade physics.
    Williams Pinball: Classic Arcade scores (Wizard Mode and/or Achievement)

    FT - 241.1M (1); TGW - 684.6M (1); JY - 99.7M (1); MM - 376M (1)

    AFM - 10 162.2M (0); BR - 41M (1); PZ - 37.8M (1)

    Cloda's somewhat vain and sort of self-indulgent thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by TuttiDeLeon View Post
    Anyone remember Rocky & Bullwinkle? That was hardcore. Shame it got delisted, it might have made for a good fit with the new physics.
    I found this table to be great fun. And i agree that the new physics would have most likely been a good fit for this table. Man this makes me miss the early days of pinball fx. All these Marvel and Star Wars tables of the last few years, just not as exciting to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawn View Post
    I found this table to be great fun. And i agree that the new physics would have most likely been a good fit for this table. Man this makes me miss the early days of pinball fx. All these Marvel and Star Wars tables of the last few years, just not as exciting to me.
    Speed Machine, Extreme, Agents & Buccaneer. All great tables with a feel closer to real pinball, (@ least in terms of table design). I really miss them, particularly Speed Machine. Might have to fire up the Xbox 360 for a spot of nostalgia,

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    Excalibur with arcade physics sounds like a nightmare. It would be 10x more drain heavy than Star Trek

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    That would be pretty fun to see how our originals and older tables would fare with the Deep Engine.

    Our tables, while having real machines in mind are somewhat differently designed (flipper angle or the size of the drain for example) and it's curious if some shots would be makeable the same way etc.

    It is a good idea nonetheless, and it would be great to experiment with it.

    We'll see when or if this would become reality, but we are very glad that you like the new system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
    That would be pretty fun to see how our originals and older tables would fare with the Deep Engine.

    Our tables, while having real machines in mind are somewhat differently designed (flipper angle or the size of the drain for example) and it's curious if some shots would be makeable the same way etc.

    It is a good idea nonetheless, and it would be great to experiment with it.

    We'll see when or if this would become reality, but we are very glad that you like the new system.
    Add it as a beta feature and we'll test it for you.We're cheap labor anyway

  39. #39
    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiForce View Post
    Add it as a beta feature and we'll test it for you.We're cheap labor anyway
    I vote for it... and please include me among the beta-testers this time...

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    I'd be happy to test as well.

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