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Thread: Physics issues not corrected from Beta

  1. #1

    Thumbs down Physics issues not corrected from Beta

    Why were identified errors in flow physics left in-game for the retail build?

    I am talking about issues like the Castle Lock release that feeds the ball directly into the L Sling in MM

    The R Orbit "kick" or "Bounce" that forces the ball out of it's path in FT, and forces a L flipper feed in a very unnatural fashion. Which makes the multiball feed just wrong. It feeds the balls to the very tip of the L Flipper.

    These issues were brought up in Beta 2, 3 and 4; with no sign of correction in the entire beta process.

    For all your HYPE of physics parity these are not things that fluctuate table to table. They are designed routes that are supposed to be consistent table to table, and game to game. By not making them reliable and consistent you have destroyed the designed game flow.

    I have to question your ability to respond to criticism, or if you're actually listening to anyone who criticizes your product.

    I get that you want to preview and respond to those who will give you good press, but that doesn't result in a good product; as we are seeing in both deficient flow/physics and the on-going, as to be expected from a lack of transparency, censorship issue.

  2. #2
    Table Designer deep's Avatar
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    I think you wrote about the Normal Single Player mode, which has the old ZEN physics for the fans of our easier approach of gameplay. You need to select classic single player to play with the new simulation physics.

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    The Multiball release does aim for the tip of the left flipper in real life and the other problem doesn’t affected it one bit. You are probably used to games without the lightning flips on location. The ball coming off the wall is a quirk present in the one they used for the model. And real pinball games can have quirks as well. While it’s not definitely right it’s not wrong either.

    And as for flow balls aren’t intended to
    Flow out the right orbit anyway. Only failed shots and Multiball release and it’s not the quirk that causes the path on Multiball release. It doesn’t even touch that spot
    Last edited by zaphod77; 10-10-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    I think you wrote about the Normal Single Player mode, which has the old ZEN physics for the fans of our easier approach of gameplay. You need to select classic single player to play with the new simulation physics.
    Nope, the issues in FT happen in all modes. Seeing as I haven't bought the DLC the Issues with MM have been confirmed to me from players who have. So again, No.
    You can see the way a ball should return along that orbit path in FT here: https://youtu.be/lEE9mtd-xec?t=22
    Here is how a MM should release a ball from the castle lock: https://youtu.be/21qTR0o5Lmc?t=55


    Quote Originally Posted by zaphod77 View Post
    The Multiball release does aim for the tip of the left flipper in real life and the other problem doesn’t affected it one bit. You are probably used to games without the lightning flips on location. The ball coming off the wall is a quirk present in the one they used for the model. And real pinball games can have quirks as well. While it’s not definitely right it’s not wrong either.

    And as for flow balls aren’t intended to
    Flow out the right orbit anyway. Only failed shots and Multiball release and it’s not the quirk that causes the path on Multiball release. It doesn’t even touch that spot
    The multiball release does not aim for the flipper tip on any FT I have played with or w/o lightning flippers. Not in any tournament, or any of the ill repaired ones at a convention. You can see that this isn't the case in any of the videos online The point of release is from the pivot to the middle of the flipper.

    The problem with FX3 is there is not enough speed out of the casters club, or too much drop off in speed off of the habitrail.

    You can see multi ball release here: https://youtu.be/lEE9mtd-xec?t=64 and here: https://youtu.be/60a_nKnEdUA?t=222
    I suggest watching at 0.25x to see the way it is released.

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    I have personally played one that did that. I'm willing to bet that the one they have does the same.

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    The Castle lock problem in MM (Arcade Mode ) needs to be fixed,it`s a bug and not a small one imho.

  7. #7

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    @McLovin posted the Fish Tales promo video from the 90s in the FX3 reddit group. I guess y'all didn't notice the difference between the way the mutiball releases in it and how it happens in your recreation, eh?

    https://youtu.be/AVKiLVVvRw8?t=219

    #PreservePinball

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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    I think you wrote about the Normal Single Player mode, which has the old ZEN physics for the fans of our easier approach of gameplay. You need to select classic single player to play with the new simulation physics.
    Hey deep, maybe you can clear this up a bit, been a bit arguing about this, saying Normal single player have the old Zen physics, did that change in the release? I really feel playing normal single player with WMS tables feel like, how can i say, a rather improved old engine, or a tweak down new physics. I can really feel the new physics by playing classic arcade or tournament, and playing with normal single player feel like something else than the old engine, were a few really thinking its like a ´lighter’ new engine. Playing old tables doesnt feel the same. Its like there are like 3 engine, or its our imagination and its the new table that just make the old physics feel better with it? Whatever the answer, im really loving both way it can be played

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    Quote Originally Posted by n3tizen View Post
    @McLovin posted the Fish Tales promo video from the 90s in the FX3 reddit group. I guess y'all didn't notice the difference between the way the mutiball releases in it and how it happens in your recreation, eh?

    https://youtu.be/AVKiLVVvRw8?t=219

    #PreservePinball
    it is completely beyond me why people think that the physics are great,right now they are not as realistic as they should be. +1 on the #PreservePinball btw nice one

    just saw this thread got a thumbs down,speaks volumes about criticism in this forum.
    Last edited by snoopy; 10-24-2018 at 11:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    it is completely beyond me why people think that the physics are great,right now they are not as realistic as they should be. +1 on the #PreservePinball btw nice one

    just saw this thread got a thumbs down,speaks volumes about criticism in this forum.
    The problem is a lot of people will just make a comment about the physics but then not give examples, just say the physics are wrong??!?!? or tell Zen what system they are playing on(commodore 64 or 20 year old computer????) or what their experience playing the table is(professional pinball player or nerd with a lot of time on their hands). Having people that played only the digital version of the tables and then making comments about how the "real" table should be doesn't make sense considering Zen has the actual table in their office. Even people that have/had the real table in their possession or have it available to play, what condition is the table in and how great a player are you????

  12. #12
    Table Designer deep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFive View Post
    Hey deep, maybe you can clear this up a bit, been a bit arguing about this, saying Normal single player have the old Zen physics, did that change in the release? I really feel playing normal single player with WMS tables feel like, how can i say, a rather improved old engine, or a tweak down new physics. I can really feel the new physics by playing classic arcade or tournament, and playing with normal single player feel like something else than the old engine, were a few really thinking its like a ´lighter’ new engine. Playing old tables doesnt feel the same. Its like there are like 3 engine, or its our imagination and its the new table that just make the old physics feel better with it? Whatever the answer, im really loving both way it can be played
    Hey,
    Sure no problem The normal single player has the exact same values like any other previous ZEN table in terms of gravity, ball weight, flipper values. The only thing different is the bounciness of some rubbers. This can be a little higher than on older tables so possibly this is what you experience as a new engine iteration.

  13. #13
    Table Designer deep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n3tizen View Post
    @McLovin posted the Fish Tales promo video from the 90s in the FX3 reddit group. I guess y'all didn't notice the difference between the way the mutiball releases in it and how it happens in your recreation, eh?

    https://youtu.be/AVKiLVVvRw8?t=219

    #PreservePinball
    I would respectfully disagree on this. You won't find two identical Fish Tales machines. This also applies to the multiball release spot since these machines were assembled by human hands. There are thousands of parts and not a single one gets placed exactly the same spot as on an other one. Is the one in the promo video releases the ball as it is? Yes. The one we have in our office releases the balls just like in PFX3. It depends on how the habitrail were placed, how the machine is set up (pitch angle, etc), how much the machine is used.
    Last edited by deep; 10-24-2018 at 03:12 PM.

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    @deep why is the nudge pass still working in the Arcade and Tournament settings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blkthorne View Post
    The problem is a lot of people will just make a comment about the physics but then not give examples, just say the physics are wrong??!?!? or tell Zen what system they are playing on(commodore 64 or 20 year old computer????) or what their experience playing the table is(professional pinball player or nerd with a lot of time on their hands). Having people that played only the digital version of the tables and then making comments about how the "real" table should be doesn't make sense considering Zen has the actual table in their office. Even people that have/had the real table in their possession or have it available to play, what condition is the table in and how great a player are you????
    Fair enough: 1: nudge pass should not work in a realistic setting.
    2: nudging feels weird ,the ball should move a little more when nudging,that said the nudge is far better than in Pinball Arcade.
    3:backhand shots feel harder to do than on a real table.
    4:Live catches feel far more difficult than they should be, but that is probably just me.(meanig real live catches where the Ball stops dead on the Flipper)
    that said i dont think it`s a bad game at all,i just think there is room for improvement.
    Last edited by snoopy; 10-24-2018 at 05:13 PM.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    I would respectfully disagree on this. You won't find two identical Fish Tales machines. This also applies to the multiball release spot since these machines were assembled by human hands. There are thousands of parts and not a single one gets placed exactly the same spot as on an other one. Is the one in the promo video releases the ball as it is? Yes. The one we have in our office releases the balls just like in PFX3. It depends on how the habitrail were placed, how the machine is set up (pitch angle, etc), how much the machine is used.
    Yet, I have posted three different examples showing this exact multiball release. So, my issue is, if the machine was designed and set up to be released this way, why can you not make the adjustments so as to be closer to the "NIB" experience? Rather than simply arguing that "our machine is in poor repair so we'll emulate it that way".

    Accepting as it is is just poor maintenance.

    it's not like the habitrail and the catapult coils need to be adjusted to get a good game, but hey, if good enough is the standard to expect from Zen ...

    #PreservePinball indeed.

    I mean it's not like I had to explain how the one way gate above the L-I-E lights worked during the beta cycle so why would I expect ZEN to get something like the multiball to work right during the same time. IKR, its just stupefying to expect them to actually Preserve Pinball while claiming to do so ...

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    Hey,
    Sure no problem The normal single player has the exact same values like any other previous ZEN table in terms of gravity, ball weight, flipper values. The only thing different is the bounciness of some rubbers. This can be a little higher than on older tables so possibly this is what you experience as a new engine iteration.
    Thanks deep for claryfing that up! Im surprise to realise how well the old engine fits with the WMS tables, it really make me appreciate it more tbh. In fact, i enjoy it more than playing back with old TPA . I was sceptical that the old engine would play great ( thinking it was more a fantasy like setting engine ), but in fact, it freakin play great!

    Now i have to get gud with your new engine

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by n3tizen View Post
    @McLovin posted the Fish Tales promo video from the 90s in the FX3 reddit group. I guess y'all didn't notice the difference between the way the mutiball releases in it and how it happens in your recreation, eh?

    https://youtu.be/AVKiLVVvRw8?t=219

    #PreservePinball
    Quote Originally Posted by deep View Post
    I would respectfully disagree on this. You won't find two identical Fish Tales machines. This also applies to the multiball release spot since these machines were assembled by human hands. There are thousands of parts and not a single one gets placed exactly the same spot as on an other one. Is the one in the promo video releases the ball as it is? Yes. The one we have in our office releases the balls just like in PFX3. It depends on how the habitrail were placed, how the machine is set up (pitch angle, etc), how much the machine is used.
    Y'all really need to get a unified PR statement about this

    @Mel Kirk just said in the newest Blahcade podcast that the ZEN experience, WRT to Fish Tales, is that it should play like a NIB game. Which implies that the multiball feed shown in the Williams promo video from the 90s is correct, and the one in the FX3 game presently requires adjustment.

    https://youtu.be/k6b8dIXRpcc?t=1386

    There is also still comment and adjustment required about the R Orbit "bump", and the variable return path from the Castle Lock (depending on the physics mode used) in Medieval Madness.

    This is now going on 3 months with no fix or actual comment on why this wasn't fixed in beta after being identified.

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