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Thread: Zen, please explain!

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    Senior Member LeanderL's Avatar
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    Default Zen, please explain!

    Please take a minute and explain! It is highly important to the community.

    1) Why are the tables censored but The Walking Dead or Doom are ok?

    2) Would it be possible to change the age rating for a DLC OR can we get an additional DLC that unlocks the normal version the Williams pack?

    3) What can we expect in the future? Will all upcoming Williams tables be censored? What can be done not to censor them?

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    From https://www.pinballfx.com/?page_id=7989:

    Zen Studios is very aware that certain tables, such as Medieval Madness, have content that cannot be included in an E10+ rated game. At this time we are running the Family Mode version directly from the ROM on consoles, Windows 10 and Mac. Zen is not censoring the game any differently from what Family Mode includes. On Steam, the game is not running Family Mode; however, this can be turned on in the game settings if so desired.

    This is a complicated issue with varying ideas and opinions, and it directly intersects huge stakeholders including legal, business, product and community. Zen’s first obligation is to provide age-appropriate content within the game’s rating.

    We hear from both sides – those who do not want Family Mode to be the only option in the game and those who appreciate Family Mode, and we will work to find the right balance for this situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanderL View Post
    Please take a minute and explain! It is highly important to the community.

    1) Why are the tables censored but The Walking Dead or Doom are ok?

    2) Would it be possible to change the age rating for a DLC OR can we get an additional DLC that unlocks the normal version the Williams pack?

    3) What can we expect in the future? Will all upcoming Williams tables be censored? What can be done not to censor them?
    I hear ya.The current censorship situation is unacceptable.We've also been talking about it in this thread: https://forum.zenstudios.com/showthr...ate-censorship

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    I really would like or recommend to give such an option! (decensor/unlock true arts!)

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    This really needs to be replied to! Please, Zen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanderL View Post
    This really needs to be replied to! Please, Zen!
    I found this link in the Pinball Arcade Forum: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/...r-esrb-rating/

    We are referred to as a vocal minority and basically all future tables will be censored.
    The whole situation is ridiculous, frustrating and paradox.Everyone is striving to recreate and in a way preserve those classic tables and experiences and then the whole thing gets shot in the foot with this censorship nonsense.
    As said before i own all of Zen tables(and all TPA tables) and i would have loved to support the upcoming Zen Williams tables but not like this.The least Zen could do is change their sales model and release the Williams tables in single packs so one can choose which tables to boycott and which not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    I found this link in the Pinball Arcade Forum: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/...r-esrb-rating/

    We are referred to as a vocal minority and basically all future tables will be censored.
    The whole situation is ridiculous, frustrating and paradox.Everyone is striving to recreate and in a way preserve those classic tables and experiences and then the whole thing gets shot in the foot with this censorship nonsense.
    As said before i own all of Zen tables(and all TPA tables) and i would have loved to support the upcoming Zen Williams tables but not like this.The least Zen could do is change their sales model and release the Williams tables in single packs so one can choose which tables to boycott and which not.
    First of all, I get your point about censorship.
    But looking at the whole picture it's very simple.

    Zen makes virtual pinball tables, they happen to be not an exact copy of the originals but a little bit altered. (they're still good and fun to play)
    You, the customer, has two options:

    - Like what you get and buy

    or

    - Don't like what you get and don't buy

    It's that simple. Zen is makes these tables the way they want to, and that may not be the way you like it. That's just too bad for you. But nobody forces you to buy.
    You can just leave them if you don't like them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M!chel View Post
    First of all, I get your point about censorship.
    But looking at the whole picture it's very simple.

    Zen makes virtual pinball tables, they happen to be not an exact copy of the originals but a little bit altered. (they're still good and fun to play)
    You, the customer, has two options:

    - Like what you get and buy

    or

    - Don't like what you get and don't buy

    It's that simple. Zen is makes these tables the way they want to, and that may not be the way you like it. That's just too bad for you. But nobody forces you to buy.
    You can just leave them if you don't like them.
    Absolutely.If the customers don't care about censorship or truthful recreation of the tables and if Zen doesn't care it is anyone's prerogative to say yes or no.I'm not holding it against anyone or Zen for not caring about censorship but i do care and i find the current situation unacceptable.Hence my gain or loss.I'm glad i still have the unfiltered TPA tables and the show must go on.Zen doesn't have my benefit of the doubt anymore.I am disappointed.

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    Hi everyone,

    Doom and The Walking Dead fall under our descriptors of Fantasy Violence and Mild Language, while some themes in these tables would require 'Alcohol and Tobacco Reference' and 'Suggestive Themes' which we don't have listed for Pinball FX3.

    There are internal talks about what could be a good option here, when we have news on this we'll try to inform everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
    Hi everyone,

    Doom and The Walking Dead fall under our descriptors of Fantasy Violence and Mild Language, while some themes in these tables would require 'Alcohol and Tobacco Reference' and 'Suggestive Themes' which we don't have listed for Pinball FX3.

    There are internal talks about what could be a good option here, when we have news on this we'll try to inform everyone.
    Looking at Mel's comments on Annandtech, I tink we're in for a long wait...
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    they just want to save us all from rampant Pinball filth this censoring is so pathetic,it`s almost funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    they just want to save us all from rampant Pinball filth this censoring is so pathetic,it`s almost funny.
    When it comes to something like this, again I must be in the minority. Whether you call it "family" mode or a way to conform to a rating, what does audio/visual content matter as long as it works well with the overall theme? I love Gorgar for example but frankly, find it a bit creepy and offensive. But nobody is making me buy Gorgar or play Gorgar. Same with Elvira, offensive to me, but not so much the pinball as the character who, to me, was offensive before she was ever a pinball theme lol.

    I guess given that, I would speak out in favor of a switchable family mode with exact original content present. I may be the only person who would turn family mode on though. But then everyone would be happy If there was a switchable family mode with the original table, it should be part of the recreation. If there was not one, why add the censorship? My 2 cents.
    Last edited by steven120566; 10-17-2018 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steven120566 View Post
    When it comes to something like this, again I must be in the minority. Whether you call it "family" mode or a way to conform to a rating, what does audio/visual content matter as long as it works well with the overall theme? I love Gorgar for example but frankly, find it a bit creepy and offensive. But nobody is making me buy Gorgar or play Gorgar. Same with Elvira, offensive to me, but not so much the pinball as the character who, to me, was offensive before she was ever a pinball theme lol.

    I guess given that, I would speak out in favor of a switchable family mode with exact original content present. I may be the only person who would turn family mode on though. But then everyone would be happy If there was a switchable family mode with the original table, it should be part of the recreation. If there was not one, why add the censorship? My 2 cents.
    i do agree with a Family/Adult mode toggle,best of both Worlds. Im just not a Fan of censoring by Game Companies or Organisations, that Choice should be left to their Parents .
    Last edited by snoopy; 10-17-2018 at 06:34 PM.

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    I found Mel Kirk's comments to be insensitive and insulting. The so called "vocal minority" is the main audience for these tables. Going as far as removing features from a table like a mini game is going too far (not to mention Champion Pub is already in a somewhat unfinished state, as is).

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    My 2 cents, I dont really care what they to to the looks of the tables as long as I can still get the great gameplay. I dont want it to be changed however to make the table play different or what was intended. Champions Pub is one of the few tables I liked on TPA and I want it as faithful as possible.

    So far I really like what Zen has done with the 4 tables available and they have made them more fun then what I experienced on TPA. I will continue to buy all their tables and enjoy them far more then TPA!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianvgplayer View Post
    I found Mel Kirk's comments to be insensitive and insulting. The so called "vocal minority" is the main audience for these tables. Going as far as removing features from a table like a mini game is going too far (not to mention Champion Pub is already in a somewhat unfinished state, as is).

    same here,first the vocal minority thing, then throwing Farsight under the Bus with his ESRB Rating comment was unnecessary.

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    So far I like the physics and polish much better than Farsight's, I just wish the game wasn't stuck with 4Kids like Censorship.

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    McLovin wrote:Hi everyone,

    Doom and The Walking Dead fall under our descriptors of Fantasy Violence and Mild Language, while some themes in these tables would require 'Alcohol and Tobacco Reference' and 'Suggestive Themes' which we don't have listed for Pinball FX3.

    There are internal talks about what could be a good option here, when we have news on this we'll try to inform everyone.

    then please explain to me, why the walking dead table has a Axe with blood on it as plunger ,but the Sword on the MM backglass is censored? This makes zero sense at all.
    Last edited by snoopy; 10-19-2018 at 11:36 AM.

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    What's with the age rating anyhow - kids don't actually play this do they?

    Everyone knows the Pinball audience is 99% middle aged men and the kids are all playing Fortnite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alipan View Post
    What's with the age rating anyhow - kids don't actually play this do they?

    Everyone knows the Pinball audience is 99% middle aged men and the kids are all playing Fortnite.
    exactly,this is ridiculous beyond belief. Im 56 years old and do not want Disney sanitized recreations of real Tables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alipan View Post
    What's with the age rating anyhow - kids don't actually play this do they?

    Everyone knows the Pinball audience is 99% middle aged men and the kids are all playing Fortnite.
    Sad but oh so true, lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    same here,first the vocal minority thing, then throwing Farsight under the Bus with his ESRB Rating comment was unnecessary.
    Where is this article or interview? I’d like to read it.

    Myself, I’m here for the pinball gameplay. As long as the ESRB Rating doesn’t effect which tables they can bring over I’m ok. Even if it does though, there must be so many tables that I’d be awhile before they were left with only tables they feel they couldn’t include under the current rating. Hopefully by that time they’ve figured out a way to include them, maybe in a teens and up DLC pack or something. “The Tables in the Back Room” DLC, lol. Like that room in the video rental store when you were a kid that only creepy looking guys ever came in and out of.
    I can see a group of kids at a sleepover now, acting all sneaky, as they make sure the parents are asleep so that they can load up and play Scared Stiff! Then the inevitable disappointment when they realize it doesn’t contain anything even close to what they see on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    Thanks for the link and now we actually have a good explanation on the edits.

    Kirk noted that Zen Studios has been penalized for inadvertently crossing the ESRB in the past. Last year, the studio's Infinite Minigolf was removed from digital storefronts after some inappropriate placeholder artwork accidentally made its way into the VR version of the game. The ESRB raised the game's rating to a T, requiring it to be altered and resubmitted to the ESRB before it could go back on sale at the original E rating.
    Yikes! That will explain why they are being extra cautious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    same here,first the vocal minority thing, then throwing Farsight under the Bus with his ESRB Rating comment was unnecessary.
    Thanks for the link. As far as what he said in the article, I don’t see how he could answer questions about how TPA version has these things and PBFX3 doesn’t without saying what he did. I don’t see that as him throwing Farsight under the bus but just answering what was asked. And I’d think that vocal minority part is almost surely correct. You’re always going to hear a lot more from those with negative views than those with positive, making it look at first glance like things are skewed to the negative. That’s Statistics 101.
    Hopefully they’ll figure a way to make everyone happy. Myself, I’m more than happy with the tables so far, but to each their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter328 View Post
    Thanks for the link. As far as what he said in the article, I don’t see how he could answer questions about how TPA version has these things and PBFX3 doesn’t without saying what he did. I don’t see that as him throwing Farsight under the bus but just answering what was asked. And I’d think that vocal minority part is almost surely correct. You’re always going to hear a lot more from those with negative views than those with positive, making it look at first glance like things are skewed to the negative. That’s Statistics 101.
    Hopefully they’ll figure a way to make everyone happy. Myself, I’m more than happy with the tables so far, but to each their own.
    The problem isn't the tables themselves, but the censorship of the tables. I like the way the tables play, but the censorship is very similar to the silliness of 4Kids where they censored Luffy's smile in an episode of One Piece for no good reason. And it's possible some of the changes could affect how the tables play. A mode may be removed from Champion Pub, a game with a somewhat limited rule set, as is.
    Last edited by Brianvgplayer; 10-24-2018 at 07:33 PM.

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    the whole protecting the Kids argument is quite frankly absolute bs, they hear worse at school then from a pinball machine qoute.i find it quite telling that they removed the preservepinball hashtag pretty quickly after the ars technica article was out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    the whole protecting the Kids argument is quite frankly absolute bs, they hear worse at school then from a pinball machine qoute.i find it quite telling that they removed the preservepinball hashtag pretty quickly after the ars technica article was out.
    Don't get me wrong: I would prefer uncensored tables as well, but you can hardly blame ZEN for restrictions set by Disney or ESRB.
    I do hope they find a way to solve this by making a special 16+ DLC or whatever solution they can find. Though I'll end up purchasing the tables anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianvgplayer View Post
    The problem isn't the tables themselves, but the censorship of the tables. I like the way the tables play, but the censorship is very similar to the silliness of 4Kids where they censored Luffy's smile in an episode of One Piece for no good reason. And it's possible some of the changes could affect how the tables play. A mode may be removed from Champion Pub, a game with a somewhat limited rule set, as is.
    I get that and it’s more than a fair complaint. But I also understand Zen’s side of the issue. Some of what I’ve read makes it sound like Zen is trying to be some kind of watchdog group out to protect kids and aggressively out to censor whatever they view as inappropriate when it seems to me more like they always envisioned their game to be family friendly and easily able to receive the E10 rating and are now handcuffed by the strict guidelines of that when it comes to content they didn’t originally create but are trying to recreate as faithfully as they can. Something they probably didn’t foresee happening when they set those policies up originally since they always had complete control over what went into their own creations. Now that they’ve run into this problem, and I chose to believe them when they say it’s a complicated one that’s not easily fixed, I can understand why they had to censor what they did. I also think that these being the very first days of Zen having this license that it’s too early to give up hope that they’ll be able to come to a solution that makes everyone happy. I even think they were probably upset at having to censor the tables in the first place, but they realized they were in a situation where they had no real choice at this time.

    I’m holding out hope that before they come to a point where they’d have to release a table where the actual gameplay would have to be altered that they will have devised a way where doing so would be unnecessary.

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    I'm under the impression from the article that they chose to censor it to keep the ESRB rating, rather than the ESRB telling them to do so, and didn't make it clear that it was their intention all along. I disagree that many of those comments needed to be said, especially the one about the way Farsight handles the ESRB ratings. From the sound of it, that thing with the Mini Golf game was something that should have been caught much earlier (and I read somewhere that the XONE and PS4 versions were rated T even before the art was changed for the Switch version).

    Edit: It looks like an announcent will be made soon. I may sound negative, but I am enjoying the tables themselves and the physics are definitely much better than Farsight's floaty physics. I also like how the tables in arcade and tournament modes seem just as mean as the originals.
    Last edited by Brianvgplayer; 10-25-2018 at 10:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianvgplayer View Post
    I'm under the impression from the article that they chose to censor it to keep the ESRB rating, rather than the ESRB telling them to do so, and didn't make it clear that it was their intention all along. I disagree that many of those comments needed to be said, especially the one about the way Farsight handles the ESRB ratings. From the sound of it, that thing with the Mini Golf game was something that should have been caught much earlier (and I read somewhere that the XONE and PS4 versions were rated T even before the art was changed for the Switch version).

    Edit: It looks like an announcent will be made soon. I may sound negative, but I am enjoying the tables themselves and the physics are definitely much better than Farsight's floaty physics. I also like how the tables in arcade and tournament modes seem just as mean as the originals.
    thanks for the update link. sounds like good news . i guess the vocal minority helped things along.
    Last edited by snoopy; 10-25-2018 at 11:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianvgplayer View Post
    I'm under the impression from the article that they chose to censor it to keep the ESRB rating, rather than the ESRB telling them to do so, and didn't make it clear that it was their intention all along. I disagree that many of those comments needed to be said, especially the one about the way Farsight handles the ESRB ratings. From the sound of it, that thing with the Mini Golf game was something that should have been caught much earlier (and I read somewhere that the XONE and PS4 versions were rated T even before the art was changed for the Switch version).

    Edit: It looks like an announcent will be made soon. I may sound negative, but I am enjoying the tables themselves and the physics are definitely much better than Farsight's floaty physics. I also like how the tables in arcade and tournament modes seem just as mean as the originals.
    Whether he intentionally “threw Fairsight under the bus” or not, Farsight had done the same to Zen recently. Does anyone remember when PBFX3 first came to Switch and was getting all of the flak over the FPS in handheld mode? I remember right after that started Farsight’s add for either TPA or Stern highlighted the fact that they were the only ones giving players a true pinball experience in both docked and handheld mode. That kind of angered me toward them. Anyone who’s played both can tell from one second of gameplay how much more graphically intensive Zen’s game is and thus how much harder it must have been to get it to work at 30 or. 60 FPS, whatever it was. The fact that Zen was able to achieve that after the fact is pretty impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    thanks for the update link. sounds like good news . i guess the vocal minority helped things along.
    Not so far.

    With the release(Williams Pinall Vol.2), also comes the option for players in the PC Steam version of Pinball FX3 to play the tables in their original form. This means family filter off by default and unaltered cabinet and playfield art on all three Volume 2 tables.
    In other words.All other platforms remain censored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    Not so far.



    In other words.All other platforms remain censored.
    Well. There is always the option of no tbuying them on console.

    The fact that the tables are uncensored on Stea, but censored on the consoles proves that Disney is NOT the reason for censorship. Just the normal age-ratings are and I don't think ZEN is really looking for a solution for that, especially after reading Mel's interview last month.
    The only reason they say they are looking into it, is hoping that in the mean time people will still buy the censored tables...
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    Currently the world is strange. It seems that everything is offensive to someone or even legally defined as 'hate speech.'

    I blame America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfhfony View Post
    Well. There is always the option of no tbuying them on console.

    The fact that the tables are uncensored on Stea, but censored on the consoles proves that Disney is NOT the reason for censorship. Just the normal age-ratings are and I don't think ZEN is really looking for a solution for that, especially after reading Mel's interview last month.
    The only reason they say they are looking into it, is hoping that in the mean time people will still buy the censored tables...
    I agree.I would love to stand corrected but at the moment it seems like Zen is stalling for time with no genuine intention to ever release the tables uncensored beyond PC.The only effective way to protest would be to boycott the Williams tables.Sad situation either way.

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    Hi everyone,

    Steam on PC has a more lenient system which affords us the room to release these tables unaltered. Other first parties do not allow this.

    This is a first step to get these games unaltered to PC first, hopefully, we'll have more news on other platforms in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLovin View Post

    This is a first step to get these games unaltered to PC first, hopefully, we'll have more news on other platforms in the future.
    Here's to hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
    [...] hopefully, we'll have more news on other platforms in the future.
    Thanks, I hope so too! I like having the Windows 10 / Xbox One version for the Play Anywhere feature but I'm a bit bummed we're still stuck with Family Mode there. Worse, I'm form Europe and there it's already PEGI 12 so really, any censorship you guys do currently would still fit in at 12+ for EU players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
    Hi everyone,

    Steam on PC has a more lenient system which affords us the room to release these tables unaltered. Other first parties do not allow this.

    This is a first step to get these games unaltered to PC first, hopefully, we'll have more news on other platforms in the future.
    Hete in Europe it's PEGI 12. There is no need to censore them in Europe anyway. This can easily be released in Europe without censorship. So just split up the releases for Europe & America.
    For the rest, the "in the future" statements from ZEN have left quite a bad tast in my mouth in the past, as this usually meant then Zen never came back to the subject, or a "no" after a very, very long time (WiiU releases, Mobile releases, VR releases, etc...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfhfony View Post
    Hete in Europe it's PEGI 12. There is no need to censore them in Europe anyway. This can easily be released in Europe without censorship. So just split up the releases for Europe & America.
    For the rest, the "in the future" statements from ZEN have left quite a bad tast in my mouth in the past, as this usually meant then Zen never came back to the subject, or a "no" after a very, very long time (WiiU releases, Mobile releases, VR releases, etc...)
    Where there's a will there's a way.I'm also doubtful of "in the future" statements but time will tell if Zen is willing enough.At the moment nothing concerning Williams Pinball is more important then being able to play the tables uncensored.Censored tables are a party crasher and disrespectful to the original intent of the tables.
    Zen don't let us down.

  42. #42

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    does this setting control it now ? or is it something else. It's from the steam version of the game

    20181122191855_1.jpg

  43. #43

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    Neat! Had not thought to go there yet. I wonder if Attract Mode is for the gameroom setup. That might help with another issue I am having. I can test this out and report back tonight if you like,

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocothetrain View Post
    Neat! Had not thought to go there yet. I wonder if Attract Mode is for the gameroom setup. That might help with another issue I am having. I can test this out and report back tonight if you like,
    no actually this option was always present, it seems on steam it was never running the rom in family mode and this options had always existed. At least if i read this :

    Zen Studios is very aware that certain tables, such as Medieval Madness, have content that cannot be included in an E10+ rated game. At this time we are running the Family Mode version directly from the ROM on consoles, Windows 10 and Mac. Zen is not censoring the game any differently from what Family Mode includes. On Steam, the game is not running Family Mode; however, this can be turned on in the game settings if so desired.
    I'm not sure what the attract mode is supposed to do am trying to find differences, i'm guessing it has something to do when you are not playing the game on what you see on the dmd ?

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by joyrider3774 View Post
    no actually this option was always present, it seems on steam it was never running the rom in family mode and this options had always existed. At least if i read this :

    I'm not sure what the attract mode is supposed to do am trying to find differences, i'm guessing it has something to do when you are not playing the game on what you see on the dmd ?
    Looks like it has to do what the start / end of a game. Nothing changes about the room layout

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    Exposing the shameful and disrespectful Zen censorship of Williams Vol.1:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDR-5awGYrA

  47. #47

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    Ya ok....... so Zen worked for a long time to make these tables possible without having to purchase a pinball table for ones house and they are disrespectful? Get over it and quit making a mountain out of a molehill.

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    This runs deeper then Watergate! Let's call it ... Flippergate. And Crow Pinball is Deep Throat...

    /sarcasm/
    Last edited by JaySTeeY; 01-01-2019 at 03:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    Exposing the shameful and disrespectful Zen censorship of Williams Vol.1:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDR-5awGYrA
    Yes... I think the censhorship is a shame as well. But "shameful" & "disrespectful"? That would be more appropiate for your comments...
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfhfony View Post
    Yes... I think the censhorship is a shame as well. But "shameful" & "disrespectful"? That would be more appropiate for your comments...
    If that is your point of view, i'm fine with it.Each to their own.In my opinion the censorship of those classic pinball tables is shameful and disrepectful.Disrespectful not only towards the audience but most importantly towards the original designers of the tables.For example, humor and a certain irreverance is a key characteristic of Medievial Madness to me.If you mess with that you mess with the identity of the table.Unimportant to some perhaps but not to others.Imo the goal of any digital pinball recreation of an original table should be to capture and preserve it as realistic as possible.Censorship goes against that very idea.And on a general level i cherish artistic freedom and censorship of it should be a no go.
    Last edited by ALH2012; 01-02-2019 at 11:23 AM.

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    If that is your point of view, i'm fine with it.Each to their own.In my opinion the censorship of those classic pinball tables is shameful and disrepectful.Disrespectful not only towards the audience but most importantly towards the original designers of the tables.For example, humor and a certain irreverance is a key characteristic of Medievial Madness to me.If you mess with that you mess with the identity of the table.Unimportant to some perhaps but not to others.Imo the goal of any digital pinball recreation of an original table should be to capture and preserve it as realistic as possible.Censorship goes against that very idea.And on a general level i cherish artistic freedom and censorship of it should be a no go.
    I don't personally see the issue as disrespect as the artists have long since sold their rights to their creation and as such have no say in what modifications are made to their work. I do however see the weirdness of removing cigars and covering cleavage yet allowing a scantily clad female to hitch hike and be picked up by a sun glass wearing dude intent on breaking the law as being potentially more dangerous. I would much prefer seeing my children, now mostly adult smoking or drinking than wearing hoochie shorts with the crack of their asses hanging out hitch hiking, being picked up by strangers tearing away being chased by the police. lol..................a different conversation I suppose, but really its all fantasy and the kids see far worse in most games and know the difference between reality and fantasy and the few who are unable to differentiate from the two are the few who will likely be unable to differentiate from right and wrong no matter what is done to comply with the esrb.
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantankerous-- View Post
    I don't personally see the issue as disrespect as the artists have long since sold their rights to their creation and as such have no say in what modifications are made to their work. I do however see the weirdness of removing cigars and covering cleavage yet allowing a scantily clad female to hitch hike and be picked up by a sun glass wearing dude intent on breaking the law as being potentially more dangerous. I would much prefer seeing my children, now mostly adult smoking or drinking than wearing hoochie shorts with the crack of their asses hanging out hitch hiking, being picked up by strangers tearing away being chased by the police. lol..................a different conversation I suppose, but really its all fantasy and the kids see far worse in most games and know the difference between reality and fantasy and the few who are unable to differentiate from the two are the few who will likely be unable to differentiate from right and wrong no matter what is done to comply with the esrb.
    You gotta point about the original artists not having a say so anymore.But just because you can (from the Zen pov) doesn't mean you should.
    And yeah where do you start and stop with the censorship?The Getaway is the only uncensored table and that is the one that openly promotes picking up random chicks and breaking the law.Go figure!

    It is not only the censorship of artwork, in the case of Medieval Madness the table has various callouts missing.That really bugs me the most.It takes away from the humor and identity of the table and imo diminishes the gameplay.Just also doesn't bode well for some of the future tables and what else might be missing.
    Last edited by ALH2012; 01-02-2019 at 04:05 PM.

  53. #53

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    I can imagine that Zen hated they had to censor anything. I suspect they love pinball as much or more than any of us and did what they did in order to comply with the esrb, but have no idea how making their games g rated or whatever they are currently rated so as to appeal to children who dont even play the game can play. I mean, most I know who play are in their 40's. We live in a different time when these tables were created and much of the humor of the times when they were created are now viewed as being sexist, racist or promote behaviors now seen as bad. People just no longer have a sense of humor. That is the sad thing to me. I mean, you only have to look at how comics have evolved to see it. Every new superhero is either someone suffering ptsd which is associated with anything other than being combat related or is ethnically, racially, religiously or sexually different to the traditional. I see this personally as a great thing while also seeing it is financially and politically motivated, which is sad because those same groups that pressure companies to change strip those of us who are paying for the chance to recapture our youth of getting the experience we are longing for while saving no one in the process. It's a shit deal for everyone especially Zen.

    Harping to Zen won't change anything unless they raise their ratings to an age that allows the censored content and seeing how the world is changing and groups increasingly become butthurt over things you and I roll our eyes at its more likely than not to get worse before it gets better. I can almost imagine a time where currently a persons sexual identity is no longer determined simply by the genitalia they were born with and others wish to contest their species claiming to identify with animals and people now stating their age should not be based on birth, but how youthful they feel............................and yes, these arguments are receiving recognition as potentially being rational thoughts. Anyway, I can imagine a time when some identify with fictional characters and species and hurt by their portrayal in pinball and other media. I know it sounds ridiculous, but really this is the world we currently live in.
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

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    Yeah i think i hear ya.Living in a pseudo politically correct age of candyasses where one can't even play a completely harmless pinball table uncensored.
    It doesn't really matter how Zen feels about it, bottom line is that they need to rectify the situation.I know some and maybe Zen don't give a shit but i do.As Jean-Luc Picard aptly put it.No excuses just: Make it so.

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    Yeah i think i hear ya.Living in a pseudo politically correct age of candyasses where one can't even play a completely harmless pinball table uncensored.
    It doesn't really matter how Zen feels about it, bottom line is that they need to rectify the situation.I know some and maybe Zen don't give a shit but i do.As Jean-Luc Picard aptly put it.No excuses just: Make it so.
    I have always lived by the idea that change has never come by those willing to sit silent and accepting, so, keep lobbying for change and maybe it'll come. As one who has often voiced my sometimes contrary opinion, it won't be easy and many will tire of listening and in the end, if you succeed, few will remember or acknowledge your contribution to the cause, but if you're passionate about this, remain respectful and just keep at em. Good luck....................btw I will remember, not that I really even care. Honestly, had no one said anything, I probably wouldn't have even noticed.

    "Things are only impossible until they're not." Jean-Luc Picard
    Accomplishments in real life

    1. Rolled a star wars machine................ie played over 99 levels and rolled it back to level 1.
    2. Rolled Nintendo punch out, several times, same quarter.
    3. Played an entire game of dragons lair and completed it and won while blindfolded.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    Exposing the shameful and disrespectful Zen censorship of Williams Vol.1:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDR-5awGYrA
    We are working on having this in the original form also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
    We are working on having this in the original form also.
    That would be awesome and just.Would be cool if this situation is corrected by the time of the Williams Pack 3 release.

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    Censorship of Williams Vol.2:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhYKNL1-9B8

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    Quote Originally Posted by M!chel View Post
    First of all, I get your point about censorship.
    But looking at the whole picture it's very simple.

    Zen makes virtual pinball tables, they happen to be not an exact copy of the originals but a little bit altered. (they're still good and fun to play)
    You, the customer, has two options:

    - Like what you get and buy

    or

    - Don't like what you get and don't buy

    It's that simple. Zen is makes these tables the way they want to, and that may not be the way you like it. That's just too bad for you. But nobody forces you to buy.Pnr Status TextNow VPN
    You can just leave them if you don't like them
    .
    On the off chance that the clients couldn't care less about control or honest diversion of the tables and if Zen couldn't care less it is anybody's right to state yes or no.I'm not holding it against anybody or Zen for not thinking about restriction but rather I do mind and I locate the present circumstance unsuitable
    Last edited by rossi123; 01-16-2019 at 08:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
    We are working on having this in the original form also.
    Vol.3 is upon us.Let us see if that work is going to be productive.

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    No sign of redemption for Zen so far.The censorship continues in Williams Vol.3:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2K9x9-Re0U

  62. #62

    Angry

    I would have bought Williams Vol.3 today on PS4, if it didn't have the censorship.. Did I understand this correctly, you can't get rid of the censorship completely even on Steam? The censorship option only affects the DMD and soundtrack, not graphics?

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    Williams Vol.4.On with the censorship:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5wO4vNU0MQ&t=


  64. #64
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    ^^^Well, not much we can do about it at this point, all i have done personally is instead of buying the tables at launch on both steam and XBX, i just now wait for a sale, tables are still playable but if they are being tampered with from the original then they are are not worth the asking price at launch, so swings and roundabouts.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAT View Post
    I would have bought Williams Vol.3 today on PS4, if it didn't have the censorship.. Did I understand this correctly, you can't get rid of the censorship completely even on Steam? The censorship option only affects the DMD and soundtrack, not graphics?
    You can turn off the censored content on Steam in the options. It's called Williams Pinball Family mode in the UI/Streaming menu.

  66. #66

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    Violence in Hong Kong, racist chanting egged on by the President of the USA. Boris Johnson the lying clown causing monumental strife in Europe becoming PM. Wars in Syria. Ebola Outbreaks across the world.

    Quick! cover that Bikini up...

    Someone's got something the wrong way round somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GruffMckenzie View Post
    Violence in Hong Kong, racist chanting egged on by the President of the USA. Boris Johnson the lying clown causing monumental strife in Europe becoming PM. Wars in Syria. Ebola Outbreaks across the world.

    Quick! cover that Bikini up...

    Someone's got something the wrong way round somewhere.
    Indeed.
    If there was like a G-cup in a small bikini it might have been something else, but it was a very decent bikini. ZEN has taken censorship to the next level. I guess we'd beter don't take our kids to the beach or swimming pool anymore. They might see a woman in bikini...
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  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by GruffMckenzie View Post
    Violence in Hong Kong, racist chanting egged on by the President of the USA. Boris Johnson the lying clown causing monumental strife in Europe becoming PM. Wars in Syria. Ebola Outbreaks across the world.

    Quick! cover that Bikini up...

    Someone's got something the wrong way round somewhere.
    Meanwhile this is banned in France. Apparently the kids aren't allowed to see a fully covered up woman, either.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/01...g?v=1546653094

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    Last Wednesday I went to the Dutch Pinball Museum in Rotterdam and stumbled on this:

    gross.jpg

    And to my surprise, a +/- 10 year old was playing Scared Stiff. I guess the boy is doomed for life now...
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfhfony View Post
    Last Wednesday I went to the Dutch Pinball Museum in Rotterdam and stumbled on this:

    gross.jpg

    And to my surprise, a +/- 10 year old was playing Scared Stiff. I guess the boy is doomed for life now...
    Haha.Nice.

    Yeah that kid is doomed and i guess anyone who ever played an uncensored pinball table.Scratch that.Anyone who ever stepped outside the housedoor into the world must be doomed.Life can be quite uncensored.

    Zen definitely have their priorities crossed.I think Solo was the last original table they produced.Must have been about 1 year ago.Have Zen really been stretching themselves too thin?Or even worse, are they in trouble and this whole Williams thing is born out of desperation because business is not going well anymore?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALH2012 View Post
    Haha.Nice.

    Yeah that kid is doomed and i guess anyone who ever played an uncensored pinball table.Scratch that.Anyone who ever stepped outside the housedoor into the world must be doomed.Life can be quite uncensored.

    Zen definitely have their priorities crossed.I think Solo was the last original table they produced.Must have been about 1 year ago.Have Zen really been stretching themselves too thin?Or even worse, are they in trouble and this whole Williams thing is born out of desperation because business is not going well anymore?
    No, I don't think they are in trouble. My guess (and hope) is that the Williams tables are doing fine for them. And they should, as the playability is great and they are visually stunning. Last week I booted The Pinball Arcade, but I can't play it anymore. i am spoiled to much by the quality of the ZEN versions of these tables.
    But, yes... they do have their priorities mixed up. We're used, as Europeans, to look at the American censorship and shake our head about this. So it's quite weird now to see that a European company has decided to take the censorship to another level. And they are not even trying to find a solution for the console owners and that worries me.
    According to what they have done with White Water, you can't take a 10 year old out swimming or to the ocean, as they might run into a woman inb bikini. God forbid...
    And did you also notice that the ZEN mod's have gone all quite regarding this subject. Right now, on consoles ZEN = CENSORSHIP ... Which is quite weird. Especially considering their audience...
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  72. #72

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    I guess it’s not that simple. Consider all the different countries, media laws, going cross platform and mostly kids playing the consoles. Also, I think Zen can be proud for all the titles they already made.

    Let’s not forget there’s a team of humans working really hard on this... I’m (as a pinball fanatic) very grateful for the quality level that pinball games have reached. It’s really promising for the future and ZEN is providing and pushing on and on.
    Last edited by DMR140; 08-09-2019 at 11:23 PM.

  73. #73

    Default Zaccaria

    Anyone played this on the xbox?
    E3 rating.

    has bikinis and a scantily clad women swinging through the jungle.
    Last edited by GruffMckenzie; 08-10-2019 at 02:06 AM.

  74. #74
    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GruffMckenzie View Post
    Anyone played this on the xbox?
    E3 rating.

    has bikinis and a scantily clad women swinging through the jungle.
    Actually, it's rated E-10, while PFX3 is only rated E. And that's where the problem lies. E-10 allows the above, while the E rating doesn't.

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/za...ot:overviewtab

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfhfony View Post
    No, I don't think they are in trouble. My guess (and hope) is that the Williams tables are doing fine for them. And they should, as the playability is great and they are visually stunning. Last week I booted The Pinball Arcade, but I can't play it anymore. i am spoiled to much by the quality of the ZEN versions of these tables.
    But, yes... they do have their priorities mixed up. We're used, as Europeans, to look at the American censorship and shake our head about this. So it's quite weird now to see that a European company has decided to take the censorship to another level. And they are not even trying to find a solution for the console owners and that worries me.
    According to what they have done with White Water, you can't take a 10 year old out swimming or to the ocean, as they might run into a woman inb bikini. God forbid...
    And did you also notice that the ZEN mod's have gone all quite regarding this subject. Right now, on consoles ZEN = CENSORSHIP ... Which is quite weird. Especially considering their audience...
    Yeah beyond the massive caveat that the tables are censored the Zen Williams tables are great, no doubt.Although i do hope they don't come with the sacrifice of the Zen Original tables.That would not be a fair trade.I want both to be able to co-exist and be co-produced.As said the last original table was Solo and that release is about 1 year ago.

    Yeah i have noticed Zen going all quiet(as in hiding) regarding the censorship.It is not acceptable and the censorship sabotages the whole concept of recreating a faithful experience of the original pinball table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMR140 View Post
    I guess it’s not that simple. Consider all the different countries, media laws, going cross platform and mostly kids playing the consoles. Also, I think Zen can be proud for all the titles they already made.
    It really is that simple. TPA just released Whoa Nelly, aka Big Juicy Melons last with the same rating.
    Farsight published their whole library without any problem. ZEN is just looking problems which aren't there.
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  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    Actually, it's rated E-10, while PFX3 is only rated E. And that's where the problem lies. E-10 allows the above, while the E rating doesn't.

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/za...ot:overviewtab
    fair enough on the correction, but that is where the problem lies.

    That a woman in a bikini needs a rating (and not really one that is posing for sexual titillation) is clearly a problem.

    It's up to Zen to decided what rating they want I guess, but i think it's fair to question why it needs to be lower than an E10!

    I love what Zen do, this does irritate a little though. I'm not even an out and out purist; it doesn't affect my game. But the fact that it happens seems so unnecessary.

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