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Thread: PB FX vs Williams Collection

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    Default PB FX vs Williams Collection

    So, I hope this thread is appropriate, because a few days ago I finnaly recieved my copy of PBHoF Willaims collection. Great game, not quite as polished as FX, but I though I'd give those of you considering the purchase a heads up with a small comparative analysis.

    First thing I noticed was how light the ball felt compared to FX. Really though it feels a little more "real", as in FX's ball is a little heavy, and a little too "Spinny". IRL pinballs do not spin on the flipper like that, you know what I mean. Drop stops actualy work in PBoH just like IRL, in FX they are all but useless.

    Graphics are a down grade, FX is much sharper, clearer, more vivid, ect. HD goodness.

    Fun factor is subjective, if you've ever played any of the featured Williams tables IRL it's absolutly amazing to see how well they replicated them. Playing Medieval madness (my first time) was a blast, always wanted to play that table. Arabian Nights (A table I've played IRL, ALOT" felt very natural.) I scored 148mil my first game.

    Really though I dont think FX would work with PBHoF's physics. FX has elements in their tables that can not be replicated IRL, so real life physics don't make all that much sence. I wish the ball diddn't spin so much but the weight does feel right for the tables, and it is consistant.

    Over all I believe, its a matter of apples and oranges. FX has better graphics, the rulesets ARE more fun IMO, and they have better toys. (b/c they can) PBHoF has realism, REAL tables, and a certain fun factor that just cant be replicated by PBFX. I mean the sound tracks for some of these machines are just awsum (MM, Pin BOT, ARB NGTS, Whirl Wind, Even GORGAR! (GOOOOR GAAAR HUUURT! lol) they just have that arcade feel.

    Ok so over all, as a video game, PBFX rules, the machines aren't drain monsters, they have deep, extremly fun rule sets, awsum toys, and great music/graphics.

    As a Pinball Sim PBHoF just has that "authentic" feel, (although the views are not as good) the fun factor is there. Not to mention you can play machines that are really tough to find and cost 6+ grand to buy.

    I know solitude mentioned a patch in the works, so I'll keep this comment short. What PBHoF does have is more replayability, the Willaims challenges and table goals along with the token system keep me coming back regardles of my HS.....
    Last edited by Logic_FTW; 02-27-2011 at 03:16 AM.

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    Although the tables are realistically modelled, I don't agree that PHOF's physics are authentic. Compare and contrast them to a video of Medieval Madness in action, for example. (There's something quite wrong with the PHOF's gravity, for starters.)

    More thoughts here:

    http://195.56.170.66/forum/showpost....7&postcount=50


    In any case, it's a bit moot. For all intents and purposes, PHOF looks to be somewhat abandoned at this point. (Despite being ported to the NGP!) There haven't been any updates, no table fixes, no DLC (where oh where is Attack from Mars????), the international distribution rights are all screwed up, etc.

    It's a big shame, because it's a solid product with very valuable licenses. And competition is always good.

    BTW, Zen is showing new tables at GDC in a few days time. I suspect one of them will be Sorcerer's Lair, maybe, but more Marvel tables are probably coming soon.

    Solitude also suggested that a table would be released this month -- presumably Mars or Paranormal -- but my calendar is making a fibber of him. Come on Solitude, crack that whip, badger the team, you can do eeeet! :-)
    Last edited by Womble; 02-27-2011 at 03:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post

    Solitude also suggested that a table would be released this month -- presumably Mars or Paranormal -- but my calendar is making a fibber of him. Come on Solitude, crack that whip, badger the team, you can do eeeet! :-)
    Unfortunately, your calendar is right. The next table won't be out until March. The good news is that releases should be pretty regular after that.

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    What about the patch ?

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    I'm a bit peaved with the whole PHOF thing at the moment. Still not available in the UK. Crave promised we'd be getting gottlieb collection on XBLA in January and their marketing people seem quite intent to keep us all in the dark. They don't answer emails or the hordes of fans on facebook asking what's going on.

    As for the physics. I've looked at videos and I don't see any evidence of them being better than fx. They remind me of VP and contrary to what everybody else thinks I don't see the physics as being that realistic. True, FX ball has more spin on the ball but real pinball has more ball spin on the ball that VP.

    For me fx feels more solid than the others. None of them seem like a real pinball. I don't see the FX ball being heavier either I see the play-field tilt as being over 9 degrees. Though I've never played with the table settings before so I don't know.

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    PHOF Williams seems to handle collisions in a more believable fashion to me. Both ball against table feature, and ball against ball. This is especially noticeable to players who have played the physical tables. The ball reacts much differently when it hits plastic, metal or rubber. Nudges are also handled a little better, but still doesn't come close to giving the player the control they would have over a physical table. On the whole, the physics are only marginally better than FX2 on the core and marvel tables. The older FX tables still feel like the physics are out of whack a bit.

    The main problem with PHOF Williams is either the gravity or table friction is off by a good amount. If you have played these tables in real life and then play them in the game you notice some serious moon ball effects. FX2 is significantly better in this regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heathenSauce View Post
    PHOF Williams seems to handle collisions in a more believable fashion to me. Both ball against table feature, and ball against ball. This is especially noticeable to players who have played the physical tables. The ball reacts much differently when it hits plastic, metal or rubber. Nudges are also handled a little better, but still doesn't come close to giving the player the control they would have over a physical table. On the whole, the physics are only marginally better than FX2 on the core and marvel tables. The older FX tables still feel like the physics are out of whack a bit.

    The main problem with PHOF Williams is either the gravity or table friction is off by a good amount. If you have played these tables in real life and then play them in the game you notice some serious moon ball effects. FX2 is significantly better in this regard.
    You see it's the moon ball effect that makes me think these things are unrealistic rather than the collision detection and absorption rates of different plastics and metals. They just don't feel as solid to me. I play a bit of Visual Pinball and that feels pretty unpredictable at times. This is kind of like a real table but not. I think the frame rate has a lot to do with it too. The framerate on FX always seems to be great.

    I always found FX1 was less predictable but more realistic than FX2 though I've not really gone back as I kind of like the predictability. I play spiderman a lot down my local bowling alley and it doesn't feel like any of the computer sims.

    I guess even realism is a little subjective and everybody keeps saying that PHOF and VP are more realistic so I'd guess the majority are probably right.

    I think the nudge is what lets FX down slightly. I don't even do it that much.

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    I understand the Moon Ball effect, but its closer to how a free falling ball acts when coming into contact with a flipper In PBHOF oppsed to FX. Very rarly will you see a Live game that vollys a ball between the slingshots 10 times. Even 6 times. Its normaly a 1-2 mabey 3 and its out there, long gone. Also traping a ball to a dead stop only to see the ball spinning on the flipper, that just dosent happen IRL or PBhOF. My main litmus yest was drop stopping. It works IRL, it works in PBHOF, it dosent work in FX.

    That being said dont think I'm "knocking" ZEN. Id buy a strawberry shortcake table from them if they made it

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    The slingshots in our tables are intentionally weaker than real slingshots, which is why longer volleys occur. The reason for this is that we don't like having the slingshots throw the ball into the outlanes as many real tables tend to.

    Williams for 3DS is showing at GDC, by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
    The slingshots in our tables are intentionally weaker than real slingshots, which is why longer volleys occur. The reason for this is that we don't like having the slingshots throw the ball into the outlanes as many real tables tend to.

    Williams for 3DS is showing at GDC, by the way.
    Any sign of Gottlieb for the 360?

    Also is there any word on when we can expect an announcement for the title update and new tables for FX2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
    The slingshots in our tables are intentionally weaker than real slingshots, which is why longer volleys occur. The reason for this is that we don't like having the slingshots throw the ball into the outlanes as many real tables tend to.

    Williams for 3DS is showing at GDC, by the way.
    Fair, but the SlingShots in FX tables are also alot more sensitive then IRL . Just look at them the wrong way and they trigger. If a ball rolls up off a flipper into a slingshot you can kiss it good bye, where IRL a more direct contact is needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
    Williams for 3DS is showing at GDC, by the way.
    Thanks for the info...erm but i live in the uk and been waiting about 3 years for a uk wii release of williams and about 1 year for the 360 version so i shant hold my breath

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    Sorry to hear that. At least ZEN loves you enough to give you pinball. Really you're not missing much, just medieval madness, Arbian nights, whirlwind and no good gophers. Anyone who's only played zen would get on a table like GorGar or space shuttle and be severly dissapointed. PB has come along way.

    BTW not sure if this was mentioned but MM and Wolverine sure do have alot in common....

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    @ Logic, can you elaborate?

    I can't really see it myself. Wolverine seems a much tighter, smaller table. I guess you could make a case for the castle/calendar in a way, but I think MM is more of a pick-your-own-adventure table whereas I play Wolverine mainly for two ramp shots. MM seems more free-flowing.

    I quite like PHOF's rendition of Space Shuttle. Yes, it has a moonball (arr arr) but it's still fun to play.

    And now that Bowen has put up a lengthy video tutorial of No Good Gofers on Vimeo, I'm interested in playing that table more too.

    The inclusion of Jive Time is a bit of a joke. Why they bothered is beyond me, when they could have reached instead for Attack from Mars, (possibly) Cirqus Voltaire, (possibly) Theatre of Magic or White Water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    @ Logic, can you elaborate?

    I can't really see it myself. Wolverine seems a much tighter, smaller table. I guess you could make a case for the castle/calendar in a way, but I think MM is more of a pick-your-own-adventure table whereas I play Wolverine mainly for two ramp shots. MM seems more free-flowing.

    I quite like PHOF's rendition of Space Shuttle. Yes, it has a moonball (arr arr) but it's still fun to play.

    And now that Bowen has put up a lengthy video tutorial of No Good Gofers on Vimeo, I'm interested in playing that table more too.

    The inclusion of Jive Time is a bit of a joke. Why they bothered is beyond me, when they could have reached instead for Attack from Mars, (possibly) Cirqus Voltaire, (possibly) Theatre of Magic or White Water.
    Yeah an of those tables would have been better, Jive time is even locked so, bleh, Voltair would have been awsum.

    Ok so the MM Wolv Comparison. Not in rueset persay but in layout

    You have a main left and right ramp. (BOND, FASTBALL) (PEASANT, DAMSAL) both require multipl hits to activate a "mode" or "Prize"

    The Snickt Saucer is right where the Cannonball Wham is. The Amneisa Saucer functions much like merlins magic and is in the same spot on table.

    Yes, the middle saucer and the castles. Big payoff, easy drain.

    The layout just feels very familiar, 2 main ramps, saucers, and a central target. Bumpers are in same spot. Hand ninjas? Trolls anyone?

    Also MM isnt really pick your own adjenture. Its about hitting orbits and raps, then getting MB MADNESS!!! then getting royal madness, then going to defeat the king of payne. Trust me in the same way bucuneer is build with Adams family in mind, Wolv is Built with MM in mind. There are alot of similarities. Its obv not a clone, but the layout is really close.
    Last edited by Logic_FTW; 03-03-2011 at 01:21 AM.

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    Solitude-care to weigh in. Woverine was based on MM right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    The inclusion of Jive Time is a bit of a joke. Why they bothered is beyond me, when they could have reached instead for Attack from Mars, (possibly) Cirqus Voltaire, (possibly) Theatre of Magic or White Water.
    I can tell you why they didn't have Cirqus Voltaire, Attack From Mars or Theater of Magic in the game and that's because those three titles are under the Bally label. It would be kind of odd having Bally titles in the "Williams Collection".

    Now, if only Crave would make that Bally Collection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    I can tell you why they didn't have Cirqus Voltaire, Attack From Mars or Theater of Magic in the game and that's because those three titles are under the Bally label. It would be kind of odd having Bally titles in the "Williams Collection".
    Maybe. It wouldn't feel odd to me, but perhaps it was a marketing decision.

    Bally/Midway was wholly owned by WMS when these machines were produced. It would seem that WMS does still have the rights to the Bally titles because they licensed mechanical reproduction rights to these tables a while back.

    If you are right, then yes, there exists the possibility of a Bally Pinball Hall of Fame. Although such a product does not thrill me the way the Williams collection does, and would almost certainly lack the many licensed Bally titles, it would be at least as competitive and interesting as the Gottlieb collection. They could call it the Bally Coin Sucker Collection, and include Silver Ball Mania and Eight Ball Deluxe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logic_FTW View Post
    Sorry to hear that. At least ZEN loves you enough to give you pinball. Really you're not missing much, just medieval madness, Arbian nights, whirlwind and no good gophers. Anyone who's only played zen would get on a table like GorGar or space shuttle and be severly dissapointed. PB has come along way.

    BTW not sure if this was mentioned but MM and Wolverine sure do have alot in common....
    hehe im a bit of an oldie (in my 40s) so i remember playing space shuttle when it came out and my gamer tag is neilpinbot and pinbot is i believe in the collection(though im no wiz at that table). and yes a huge thank you to zen for giving pinball a new lease of life

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    All I'm saying is if they release a Gottlieb collection they best include Haunted House and Street Fighter II

    And Williams collection on 3DS I'm defo getting one now!

    Would be good if TWC got dlc for AFM, CV, Earthshaker!, Junk yard, Theatre of magic, White water etc. Maybe Zen could co license them from Williams.......I can dream can't I

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    Quote Originally Posted by lettuce View Post
    All I'm saying is if they release a Gottlieb collection they best include Haunted House and Street Fighter II

    And Williams collection on 3DS I'm defo getting one now!

    Would be good if TWC got dlc for AFM, CV, Earthshaker!, Junk yard, Theatre of magic, White water etc. Maybe Zen could co license them from Williams.......I can dream can't I
    Gottlieb collection is pretty lame really I had it for wii. No haunted house, no street fighter II. I think blue pointed out that haunted house probably isn't there because the rights are owned by Microsoft.

    It has black hole and teed off though. It's not great but pinball is pinball right?

    As for DLC for williams I don't think they are really listening to their fans. Infact going on their facebook page pretty much confirms that

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAMMRBONGO View Post
    Gottlieb collection is pretty lame really I had it for wii. No haunted house, no street fighter II. I think blue pointed out that haunted house probably isn't there because the rights are owned by Microsoft.
    How does Microsoft own the rights for Haunted House??

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    I like most of the tables in the Williams collection, but prefer how Pinball FX plays.

    I think the only solution is for Zen to buy the rights, and release the Williams tables in Pinball FX2

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    The re-release, and renaming of "Williams Pinball Classics" has been pushed back to April.

    http://www.system3.com/index.jsp?i=806&s=1111

    Would not hold breath. And no mention of XBLA or whether this title will be available outside of the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lettuce View Post
    How does Microsoft own the rights for Haunted House??
    I expect because that was one of the tables that was included in the "Microsoft Pinball Arcade" collection that came out for PCs in the 90's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    The re-release, and renaming of "Williams Pinball Classics" has been pushed back to April.

    http://www.system3.com/index.jsp?i=806&s=1111

    Would not hold breath. And no mention of XBLA or whether this title will be available outside of the US.
    So whys the name changed then is this a new release or just the name for the UK version?

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    As mentioned in this thread already... Williams Collection has a more realistic feel to it. Being able to play classic tables is a plus, but there are a bunch of downsides to this game.

    The game has been completely abandoned. What is up with the button configuration? Why wasn't this game implemented to have a button customization for players that use a stick? Why can't I just view the scores of my friends?

    Williams Collection has such a great nudging system. It feels more realistic and rewarding. The game can be so great, but the developers don't care about it enough to tweak or update. I can go on and on about this...

    Very sad... High potential to be something competitively amazing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lettuce View Post
    So whys the name changed then is this a new release or just the name for the UK version?
    The only difference I see between the two is the name change. I own the hall of fame and everything looks identical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAMMRBONGO View Post
    Gottlieb collection is pretty lame really I had it for wii. No haunted house, no street fighter II. I think blue pointed out that haunted house probably isn't there because the rights are owned by Microsoft.

    It has black hole and teed off though. It's not great but pinball is pinball right?

    As for DLC for williams I don't think they are really listening to their fans. Infact going on their facebook page pretty much confirms that
    I have to agree with ya on that one. I have both the williams and the gottlieb on the psp, and there is no comparison between the two. The tables aren't nearly as good, and the ball movement is not as crisp on the gottlieb tables (the balls almost seem to float).

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    Quote Originally Posted by woof321 View Post
    i expect because that was one of the tables that was included in the "microsoft pinball arcade" collection that came out for pcs in the 90's.
    egg sackly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverslapper View Post
    The only difference I see between the two is the name change. I own the hall of fame and everything looks identical.
    I think they've got some kind of legal or ownership / distribution problem going on.

    I suspect the name change is along those lines. I also doubt it will ever happen. Tough I really hope it does. I've contacted system 3 a few times now. They say they can't talk about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logic_FTW View Post
    Yeah an of those tables would have been better, Jive time is even locked so, bleh, Voltair would have been awsum.

    Ok so the MM Wolv Comparison. Not in rueset persay but in layout

    You have a main left and right ramp. (BOND, FASTBALL) (PEASANT, DAMSAL) both require multipl hits to activate a "mode" or "Prize"

    The Snickt Saucer is right where the Cannonball Wham is. The Amneisa Saucer functions much like merlins magic and is in the same spot on table.

    Yes, the middle saucer and the castles. Big payoff, easy drain.

    The layout just feels very familiar, 2 main ramps, saucers, and a central target. Bumpers are in same spot. Hand ninjas? Trolls anyone?

    Also MM isnt really pick your own adjenture. Its about hitting orbits and raps, then getting MB MADNESS!!! then getting royal madness, then going to defeat the king of payne. Trust me in the same way bucuneer is build with Adams family in mind, Wolv is Built with MM in mind. There are alot of similarities. Its obv not a clone, but the layout is really close.
    I'd always thought that street fighter II reminded me of medieval madness layout wise. Wolverine reminds me of stones n bones for pinball fantasies or gottlieb wipeout http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2799&picno=5156

    maybe even indiana jones http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1267&picno=9429 It feels like terminator 2 though to play to me. I think it's the fast metal ramps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    Now, if only Crave would make that Bally Collection.
    I asked Crave, and got this:

    We currently don't have any plans at this time to release a new pinball
    game for the 360 or PS3. This doesn't mean however that we are not
    opened to the idea.


    He's dead, Jim.

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