FarSight launches new Pinball title

[Womble]

http://www.pinballarcade.com/

Available for pretty much every platform except Wii U.

The big news: they've snaffled up some big licenses including Bally (Williams) and Stern. The video shows Ripleys and Theatre of Magic.

Games will be added through DLC.

Visuals aren't overly impressive so far. Hopefully they've improved the physics and overall UI.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

So we are gonna be able to download this on the 360 as we do with Zen? Theater of Magic and Ripley's, that is pretty bad ass.

[jibblypop]

Nice. I can only see good things from this. Competition will push both companies to compete with better and better products.

I will support both games 100% as long as the quality stays high.

Also, didn't Zen Studios say in an interview that they would be adding some classic tables? If that comes through, I wonder if there will be some overlap between the two games?

[BIGPOPPAFURIOUS]

looks interesting.....i just wonder why ZEN couldnt remake these classic tables?? depending on DLC pricing, they may have some competition on there hand's, but with V&V coming out in the winter, i would'nt sweat it.....ZEN will still most likely be my top choice!!! but nice too know, good fyi...

[Nekro Neko]

Awesome, I'll get to play Tales of the Arabian Nights, probably my all time favourite table. Never really played Theatre of Magic very much so that will also be nice. I'll be happy to drop my points on this product.

Still, don't worry Zen, I'll still be getting all your tables as they come out too.

[BIGPOPPAFURIOUS]

well, i was exicted untill i googled farsight.....SMH...there past line up of games does'nt impress me....i mean i havent played many of them, and there's a reason for that....but it seems as if they are re-releasing a hand-full of recycled table's from there past pinball attempts (PBHOF,Gottlieb,ETC.) and then charging for so called DLC.....which again looks to be recycled tables. I guess they will have enhanced visual's for current generation consoles, but takeing a retail release, converting 1/2 it to XBLA, and then charging DLC prices for the other 1/2 is just crazy....I think ill stick wit ZEN for now.....i do desire to play some CLASSIC tables, but i dont like farsight's marketing strategy so far.....

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Damn I knew farsight sounded familiar. Their tutorials CRUSH Zen's. Zen, please make rules/tutorials like Farsight did on Williams Hall of Fame. Can't wait to see Theatre of Magic and Ripleys from Farsight. Maybe Farsight is ready to throw down with Zen. BTW, I have a thread going where you can let Zen know what real machines you would like to see them make. Glad to see that thread was ahead of it's time.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Awesome, I'll get to play Tales of the Arabian Nights, probably my all time favourite table. Never really played Theatre of Magic very much so that will also be nice. I'll be happy to drop my points on this product.

Still, don't worry Zen, I'll still be getting all your tables as they come out too.

Farsight already included Tales on the Williams HOF disc. One of the best tables too.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Holy crap those tables look JUST like their real life counterpart. Theatre of Magic looks amazing. Black Hole looked so good too. Note the message at the end of the video, lots of tables coming to you for years. Man Zen is gonna have some competition. They should really get on the ball about making real life machines. I can't believe I can play Theater of Magic and Ripley's on my tv SOON.

[Verjigorm]

On their Facebook page they stated that they are going to start of with the 4 tables shown in the video and want to add another table every two weeks. That would be an amazing rate, so I guess they already finished quite a few, so they'll be able to keep that promise at leat for the first few weeks.
30 tables after the first year would probably bring them up to the amount of available Zen tables around that time.
But still, 2 weeks a table for all those plattforms seems to be very optimistic from my pov.

[Womble]

But still, 2 weeks a table for all those plattforms seems to be very optimistic from my pov.

As you say, they've probably got a catalogue of PHOF titles already in the bank. But yeah, a title every 2 weeks is probably not only optimistic, but overdoing it.

I'd rather they spend the time getting a table right. Sure, the table logic and AV packages are emulated, but it takes a long time to get the art, geometry and whatnot done, not to mention playtesting and QA. Above all they have to fix the moonball physics. It's a deal breaker for me. I'm not playing Medieval Madness with PHOF physics.

Also, keep in mind this is FarSight we're talking about. Their calendar has traditionally run on ValveTime. ;-)

It will be really interesting to see what Zen do with their Classics lineup, and what licenses they manage to score.

[shogun00]

Wow! I'm really impressed. It seems that pinball is really making a come back.

[Scotty Canuck]

As Womble said, if the moonball physics are fixed, I will get every table, otherwise, I'll just play PHoF.

This is exciting news for pinball fans

[Gegliosch]

The visuals are alright, but the ball movement looks very unnatural. I guess the only reason to get this over fx2 would be nostalgy.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

The visuals are alright, but the ball movement looks very unnatural. I guess the only reason to get this over fx2 would be nostalgy.

You and womble don't really know what you're talking about. Farsight goes to GREAT lengths making sure their tables are picture perfect in EVERY way and detail. Farsight's tables replicate their original's counterparts in every single way. Thus it is much harder to get huge scores on Farsight's tables. Their tables are checked out by Pinball wizards/pros/designers. The big difference is that their tables feel kinda stiff compared to Zen's. Farsight's tables can be just as exciting and fun as Zen's. In fact WPHOF is what got me into video pinball. I played that a few years before Zen. I've only had Zen's tables for about seven months now. I'm guessing you will have to own the William's disc to download the new tables? Maybe not, if Farsight really wants some new customers. A new table every two weeks is sick. With Farsight's DLC and Zen's, my pinball fever will be fed in very new ways. This is one of the biggest announcements of the year.

[Womble]

You and womble don't really know what you're talking about.

Ok. Maybe we could leave the personal stuff out of this?

Farsight goes to GREAT lengths making sure their tables are picture perfect in EVERY way and detail.

My idea of "picture perfect" is clearly very different from yours. Each to their own.

Notable issues with FarSight's tables:

- the physics are very ordinary, and in fact broken. Ball acceleration appears to be deliberately dampened, perhaps due to the physics solution being used. (See below.) Play Medieval Madness and tell me that the ball is supposed to act that way. Or watch a YouTube video of a real MM machine next to a video of the FarSight version...

- the physics simulation clearly does not run fast enough. And/or, the collision detection of major elements is broken. Witness: the ball often clips through the edges of the flippers when the ball is travelling at speed. (A sign that the physics simulation is not running at a suitable clip, and is not compensating.) Also, it's not uncommon to see a ball be launched at a speed that enables it to escape the table geometry. (This also happens in Zen's tables, but very, very rarely.) It says volumes that PHOF has a special notice that appears, telling you that a ball escaped, and will be put back in to play...

- the mechanical audio (including ball rolling, ball-on-ball impacts and other impacts) just isn't there. Yes, the tables feature authentic canned music and sfx, but so they should; the tables are being emulated using the original ROMs and samples. But the simulation sounds are not very good.

- the lighting model, compared to Zen's, is quite primitive. Global illumination doesn't exist as such, there's little to no self-shadowing, the ball's lack of decent environment mapping and shadowing means that balls appear to float above the surface. Major visual events and lighting shows (e.g. the MM castle destruction) aren't handled at all. There is zero surface reflection, faked or real.

- although FarSight's tables have the huge benefit of using existing assets (table designs, artwork, etc.), the actual assets are of poor quality. Low resolution assets abound, with plenty of low poly-count geometries. Clearly, a holdover from earlier platform releases. Worse, the rendering is sub-par at times. Witness: look at the texture filtering towards the top of the table on a game like TOTAN or MM. (It gets crazy ugly.)

- terrible, clunky UI. (You should never have to hit the A button just to confirm that the game has loaded a game for you.) Nor should we have to sit through a low resolution menu system, or have to wait for "rooms" to be loaded one after another.


Clearly, FarSight's tables have their basis on earlier and sub-HD consoles (PlayStation, Wii). The core engine is lacking technically, in comparison to Pinball FX 2 and Marvel Pinball, and the overall UI experience isn't even comparable. FarSight does offer some good things (i.e. having licensed tables) but table accuracy and replication is not one of them.

Farsight's tables replicate their original's counterparts in every single way.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I invite you to play a real Space Shuttle, Gorgar or Medieval Madness some time. After the glow of nostalgia has faded, you may note that these tables are far from being perfectly replicated.

(BTW, if you really are at PHOF Vegas, you should have no problems getting some time on these real machines. Lucky you! According to the PHOF listing you have an MM, but no Gorgar or Space Shuttle or TOTAN. So you should know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to MM. How on earth does the (crazy good) Castle lightshow compare to the non-show in FarSight's version? They don't even try to replicate it.)

Real life MM cabinet:

http://austinthompson.org/Arcade/Med...abinetLeft.jpg

FarSight's:

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/ar...0064532100.jpg

Real life upper playfield, non-illuminated:

http://austinthompson.org/Arcade/Med...fieldUpper.jpg

FarSight's (in a vanity shot, no less):

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/ar...0064534241.jpg

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Yes I can and do play MM in real life. And I'll be playing TOM and RBIONOT in person, then going back to my 360 to play them by FarSight. I'm not into all of this technical jargon you're going on about. I like both Zen's and FarSight's tables.Each have their benefits. And I'm gonna predict that FarSight has some kind of new updates or upgrades on their new and future tables.
And BTW, was not trying to get personal at all. I like everyone to be friendly. I'm definitely not into flame wars and that kind of crap. Experienced that on different boards over the years. It definitely ruins things. Sorry if I come across in a brash tone sometimes on here. I'm definitely not trying to start trouble with anyone. I love pinball and that's why we are all here. Not to argue. Just discuss and share.
When I first played MM at the museum last year, it was almost like playing the video game. I was trying to do things on the table that I would do in the video game,lol. FarSight did a phenomenal job on that one. Tales Of The Arabian Nights is not as good in person as FarSight's. FunHouse is also done WAY better by FarSight. I never played Gorgor or Space Shuttle in real life.
Bottom line, if you're good with Zen tables, you should be able to play FarSight's.

[Womble]

Don't worry, if it wasn't for nerds going all geeky over the technology and pushing for improvements, we'd still be playing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEuNpdB_3E0

The horror, the horror.

I think FarSight does a lot of things right. (Cameras, glass reflection, challenges, rules and tutorials.) I just think they need to improve markedly in some key areas.

However, this does leave me worried about Zen's ability to produce classic tables. Assuming that FarSight have WMS/Bally, Gottlieb and Stern sewn up, what would Zen be left with?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHySFvc2et4

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Don't worry, if it wasn't for nerds going all geeky over the technology and pushing for improvements, we'd still be playing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEuNpdB_3E0

The horror, the horror.

I think FarSight does a lot of things right. (Cameras, glass reflection, challenges, rules and tutorials.) I just think they need to improve markedly in some key areas.

However, this does leave me worried about Zen's ability to produce classic tables. Assuming that FarSight have WMS/Bally, Gottlieb and Stern sewn up, what would Zen be left with?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHySFvc2et4

You're right. That leaves only Data East, Sega, and maybe a few other companies. I think Williams and Gottleib will let Zen work on their tables too. I mean, why not? There is a good amount they could do. But they better hurry or FarSight is gonna have all the good ones,lol.

[Cloda]

It's very hard to judge from a little video clip like that but its still doesn't look nearly as visually attractive as ZEN's tables. It looks like they have done something about the physics engine but in that little bit on ToM it now looks like gravity has no effect on the ball as it still looks floaty and it moves up and down at exactly the same rate... you can't see the ac/deceleration that makes ZEN's physics "feel" so real. It also appears that the ball is not going where it is intended when the ball hits the flippers on TOM - that is a major frustration for me on Williams Pinball Classics as it never feels for me like I can actually aim.

Using the ROM's for original sounds, although attractive to some, are ridiculously grating for me on some of the tables e.g. Black Night 2000 and Gorgar... I don't know how anybody can stand both those tables repeated, piercing sounds - 5 min and I have a crazy headache. The only table where I could look past the physics and the sounds was Whirlwind and I actually had a bit a fun on that... but only a bit as fx 2 is just so much more fun. My conclusion with Williams Pinball Classics was that unless you have a seriously healthy dose of nostalgia (which I don't have), you weren't going to get that much out of it.

But, lets wait and see... I'm pretty sure they realised that they have to improve considerably in certain areas to compete with ZEN for new players and not just the mostly 40+ years old crowd.

[The Albin0 Rhin0]

Farsight has made strides toward recreating real life machines for video pinball. This is awesome, we may finally see pinball competition for the first on the TV screen.

I'll buy it, due to Theater of Magic and Ripley's. Wonder how Zen is going to react.

[Womble]

.... not just the mostly 40+ years old crowd.

But, but, but ... 40+ year olds are the core, elite pinballers.

[Zuch80]

It looks very week compared to Zen's products

[peglegp]

It looks very week compared to Zen's products

totally - not even close

[Alipan]

So what is this exactly - it looks like they are taking the tables from retail releases like Willliams Pinball Classics and re-packaging them as DLC downloads???

That would explain how they can release so many tables at least. I would imagine they would update the leaderboard systems as well to something similar to FX2.

Whoever said the tutorials are good in their games is spot on - this is the one area where Zen could learn a lesson from them.

Everything else is inferior though imo - I recently bought Williams Pinball Classics for the 360 and to be honest I never play it. Some people have claimed the physics are more like real tables and that may be true at some moments but they are also very odd a lot of the time as well. The velocity of the ball doesnt always seem right.

I also have Gottlieb Pinball on the PSP - again nice presentation but the gameplay is a bit lacking - you never feel like you can aim the ball with any certainty.

If they polish everything up and improve the physics Ill be happy to give this a go but I suspect the more likely scenario is a cheap easy cash in on their existing work!

[LukkyNL]

This is awesome news! 2 table dlc a MONTH! I can almost smell Cirqus Voltaire!

Why do pinballfans argue over what's best? Just enjoy pinball and quit whining.

[ShoryukenToTheChin]

I wouldn't put it passed them that this gets delayed by a year, remember that other xbla game which was coming by them in jan 2011... wheres that gone. For me there tables never made you feel the Ball had any weight it just felt like a Balloon more than a Ball.

[progrocker69]

Williams Pinball for the PS3 has its moments of greatness but there are definitely some flaws. On Pin*Bot, the ball seems to LOVE the left side drain a bit too much; and on many of the tables the overall physics are decent, but not on par with FX2.

I just hope this means that they'll release a lot of classic early to mid 80s tables. I cut my chops on Bally tables like Mystic, Silverball Mania and so many other classics from the major companies during the late 70s and early 80s. And while most of these are available for VPinMAME or Future Pinball, they just don't tend to play very well much of the time.

If they can do this, and do it right, I'll buy every table they put out. If it's not all that good I will still buy some but I will be more selective and only go for personal favorites.

[shogun00]

You're right. That leaves only Data East, Sega, and maybe a few other companies.

Doesn't Stern own the assets of Data East and Sega Pinball?

[shogun00]

Using the ROM's for original sounds, although attractive to some, are ridiculously grating for me on some of the tables e.g. Black Knight 2000 and Gorgar...

Don't confuse the original Black Knight (in PHOF:WC) with Black Knight 2000. Black Knight 2000 has one of the best soundtrack around.

I could listen to the music for hours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZJ_n...eature=related

[satch]

mixed opinions on this from me, if it plays like the Williams collection with the balloon like floating ball and poor leaderboards then i may only pick up the odd table like ToM, i would have much rather that ZEN was doing these tables.

[Zuprichy]

Don't confuse the original Black Knight (in PHOF:WC) with Black Knight 2000. Black Knight 2000 has one of the best soundtrack around.

I could listen to the music for hours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZJ_n...eature=related

Wow...Sorry,I must disagree...this sounds terrible!

Just my opinion, of course...

[satch]

But, but, but ... 40+ year olds are the core, elite pinballers.

..........

[Zuprichy]

But, but, but ... 40+ year olds are the core, elite pinballers.

... and now i understand why i am not that good...

[Scotty Canuck]

Wow...Sorry,I must disagree...this sounds terrible!

Just my opinion, of course...

I love the music! It reminds me of the SNES/Mega Drive era of gaming

[shogun00]

Wow...Sorry,I must disagree...this sounds terrible!

Just my opinion, of course...

It's not for everyone. Black Knight 2000 came out in 1989, which the table's hardware is about the equivalent of the Genesis (aka Mega Drive).

However, compared to Black Knight's soundtrack (released in 1980), Black Knight 2000's soundtrack is light years better.

[Be4u]

IMHO, Zen is the COD of pinball. The tables are fun,
friendly, comfortable and colorful.

I'll definatly play (probably all) these Farsight tables but watching the
short clips doesnt do anything for me.

[Babbylonian]

I'll be on board and play the game, just like I played Pinball Hall of Fame (on 3 different systems!). Still, I have low expectations as to the gameplay. While I found the PHOF table designs authentic I really didn't like the ball motion. The last time I played it the physics seemed even worse because I'd spent months playing FX2.

Maybe Zen could license out their engine?

[jibblypop]

IMHO, Zen is the COD of pinball.

No need to insult Zen like that!


By the way, I think it's really cool of Zen to allow this discussion to go on in their forum. It's a competing product so they don't have to do it but they know we are all pinball obsessed.

[Eviron]

Arabian Nights again... I found that table hard to play in Williams Pinball Classics ("PBHOF - The Williams Collection" in other countries) mainly because the contrast between ball and playfield wasn't intense enough and it wasn't always clear for me to see if the ball was rolling beneath or on the transparent ramps. Hope they improved on this...

Another complaint, in general this time, is the ineffective nudging. Saving the ball from travelling into the outlanes never really worked out, the ball seems to just ignore what you have done and keeps travelling unmolested to his death...

I really like the idea behind Pinball Arcade but I'll wait and see to what extend the problems are fixed before getting all excited about it.

[Be4u]

No need to insult Zen like that!

lol, you know what i mean

I guess I should have said that Zen is the Aaron Rodgers of quarterbacks. imho

[ShinobiSteve]

I'll probably be picking tables for this up, so long as they did fix the floaty ball physics from pinball HOF, and a few other glitches to tables that were on that (I'm looking at you Arabian Nights and your Harem ramp). Hoping we get lots of good licensed tables out of this.

[ShinobiSteve]

I love the music! It reminds me of the SNES/Mega Drive era of gaming

I love the BK2K music too, it's always a table I play when I go to the local pinball hall just to rock out to it :P

[Metal Ball]

By the way, I think it's really cool of Zen to allow this discussion to go on in their forum. It's a competing product so they don't have to do it but they know we are all pinball obsessed.

Yeah, I read the forum rules, and I refrained from having a discussion about the PHoF that was recently released for the 3DS, which I own. But in all honesty, the 3DS version of PHOF is a majorly watered down version of the console releases. Only 7 tables on it. Even the cool shredding/metal guitar instrumental soundtrack was missing. The 3D effect on it is pretty cool, and the graphics are nicer to look at than the Wii versions. But the ball physics are just as disappointing. Meh, I can't wait til Zen Pinball 3D gets released.

I also own the Williams Collection for X360, and was hoping they would release an updated Gottlieb collection. To my surprise, they had more in store for us all along. I am crossing my fingers hoping they fix-up the physics, and the nudging on those tables is completely useless.

Anyways, I don't see these Farsight tables as a threat to Zen. I'd collect all the pinball games if I could, but I'm certainly having the most fun with Zen.

[slicer1000]

I take it most of you are American on this site. It's worth pointing out that the European release of Williams which came out a lot later than the American version did have a lot of improvements to it the harem ramp was fixed for instance.

[Nekro Neko]

Only 7 tables on it.

This amuses me, I remember when games only released with one table. Even Pinball FX released with just 3 tables originally. I guess some people don't know how good they have it.

[satch]

I take it most of you are American on this site. It's worth pointing out that the European release of Williams which came out a lot later than the American version did have a lot of improvements to it the harem ramp was fixed for instance.

I'm in the UK, and after waiting for Williams collection delay after delay for over a year, now that i have it i have only spent a few hours on it, i have played many more hours on a single ZEN table, so Williams collection say 5 hours play over the 13 tables, where has 1 ZEN table alone "wolverine" for example has some thing like 40+ hours play.

[Big White Mint]

I'm excited for this, but I've said before that I think the physics in their games get more right than wrong in terms of emulating the real thing. FX2 plays well and the physics are internally consistent, but they are off from the real deal in some ways. Nudging is too effective, trapping is too easy, there is not enough random scatter off of objects, and the top speed of the ball is too high.

For Williams, I agree the flipper contact is a bit wonky, speed can be a little low at times, and its hard to see the ball actually rolling (which is what I think people mean when they say it's floaty).

Still, I love it all. Play FX2, Zen Pinball (needs the update so badly), real pinball almost every weekday, Visual Pinball almost every day, and Williams. Bring it on. For the few dollars any of these cost, we can't really lose.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

FarSight's physics on their tables are fine. You just need more skill to play FS's tables. It's hilarious seeing all these people saying the mechanics are broken, the nudge doesn't work, etc. FS simply makes much more challenging and real life tables/physics than Zen. God it's gonna be SOO sweet getting a new table every two weeks.

[Oskari14]

The physics are very ordinary, and in fact broken. Ball acceleration appears to be deliberately dampened, perhaps due to the physics solution being used. (See below.) Play Medieval Madness and tell me that the ball is supposed to act that way. Or watch a YouTube video of a real MM machine next to a video of the FarSight version...

People, people! You forget something important! How many of us can access a real machine? Not me! The physics may suck on this game, but this game is better than nothing, right? I'm going to be happy to play this game because of these real machines i can never access. I'd also like to see them in Zen's physics, but FS was faster on the licenses!

[satch]

People, people! You forget something important! How many of us can access a real machine? Not me! The physics may suck on this game, but this game is better than nothing, right? I'm going to be happy to play this game because of these real machines i can never access. I'd also like to see them in Zen's physics, but FS was faster on the licenses!

yeah its more than 10 years since i last played any decent amount of time on a real table and i will pick up some of the tables that i have fond memories of, but @"lasvegaspinballhalloffame" i sure don't remember "pin bot" being so annoying has it is on the Williams collection..launch the ball watch it bounce from one side of the table to the other a few times then go down the left drain without even touching the ball.

[heathenSauce]

yeah its more than 10 years since i last played any decent amount of time on a real table and i will pick up some of the tables that i have fond memories of, but @"lasvegaspinballhalloffame" i sure don't remember "pin bot" being so annoying has it is on the Williams collection..launch the ball watch it bounce from one side of the table to the other a few times then go down the left drain without even touching the ball.

Pinbot (the actual physical table) is notorious for that left outlane (seriously, look up any forum about the table, it's almost wall to wall comments about it). If anything I find the version on Williams collection to be more forgiving there.

[Babbylonian]

Pinbot (the actual physical table) is notorious for that left outlane (seriously, look up any forum about the table, it's almost wall to wall comments about it). If anything I find the version on Williams collection to be more forgiving there.

I have had better luck with video Pinbot too, though I don't know if it's because it's necessarily more forgiving (I've had my fair share of no-flip drains) or because I haven't had to plug quarters into my PS2/PSP/360 (yeah, I've bought it 3 times, big whoop, wanna fight about it?) to practice on it.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

yeah its more than 10 years since i last played any decent amount of time on a real table and i will pick up some of the tables that i have fond memories of, but @"lasvegaspinballhalloffame" i sure don't remember "pin bot" being so annoying has it is on the Williams collection..launch the ball watch it bounce from one side of the table to the other a few times then go down the left drain without even touching the ball.

Just like in real life, things happen and some tables are easier and harder than others. FarSight keeps a good balance on that.

[satch]

Just like in real life, things happen and some tables are easier and harder than others. FarSight keeps a good balance on that.

Thanks guys maybe i will have to give the williams collection another try, but i think ZENS tables are way better graphics and a better sense that the ball is rolling on the table surface maybe like some one else mentioned its this that gives the floating feeling of the ball.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Thanks guys maybe i will have to give the williams collection another try, but i think ZENS tables are way better graphics and a better sense that the ball is rolling on the table surface maybe like some one else mentioned its this that gives the floating feeling of the ball.

I agree, Zen's tables are better looking in general.

[Vincent]

I'll never buy this crap. The physics are totally ridiculous, and they don't even know how to design a proper 3D metallic ball.

[Lepruk86]

I am very wary...

PBHOF was such a let down. They did some minor things right but messed up so much other stuff; it just ruins the game.

The only issue with Zen's tables for me at the moment; is they need to get better are score-design; I don't think any table feels quite right just yet (though they have some better ones).

I also think Zen need to up the difficulty just a bit. But that's a personal opinion of course.

Either way competition is certainly good; but Farsight have a lot to make up for before I consider another of their products...

(These companies need to just trust Zen; they would do amazing work restoring the classics in their engine )

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

I'll never buy this crap. The physics are totally ridiculous, and they don't even know how to design a proper 3D metallic ball.

Complete bull crap. Have you even played the Williams disc all the way through? And they can't design a ball? hahaha, ridiculous. Well me and the good folks at Zen will be playing all of the tables FarSight release.

[heathenSauce]

Complete bull crap. Have you even played the Williams disc all the way through? And they can't design a ball? hahaha, ridiculous. Well me and the good folks at Zen will be playing all of the tables FarSight release.

He does have a point about the ball, at least in the US version of the williams collection on 360 the ball is 2d and glued to the table. This is most noticeable on No Good Gophers in multiball. If you launch one ball off the midfield ramp, even though it's 'in air' it can still collide with a ball under it.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

He does have a point about the ball, at least in the US version of the williams collection on 360 the ball is 2d and glued to the table. This is most noticeable on No Good Gophers in multiball. If you launch one ball off the midfield ramp, even though it's 'in air' it can still collide with a ball under it.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. I can put a hurting on No Good Gophers and most of the other tables. The ball/s seem and play fine to me. My friend ihearawitch agrees. And he's one of the best video pinball players in the world. Look him up on the FX2 leaderboards. He is in the top 5/10 on most tables. He is also top in a lot of the FarSight tables. I think since FS's tables are much more real and challenging than Zen's people want to accuse them of all of these different things to make up for not being able to play them good.

[Womble]

I think since FS's tables are much more real and challenging than Zen's people want to accuse them of all of these different things to make up for not being able to play them good.

Do you mind not personalising these issues?

They're just opinions about pinball. It's not religion.

[heathenSauce]

I really have no idea what you're talking about. I can put a hurting on No Good Gophers and most of the other tables. The ball/s seem and play fine to me. My friend ihearawitch agrees. And he's one of the best video pinball players in the world. Look him up on the FX2 leaderboards. He is in the top 5/10 on most tables. He is also top in a lot of the FarSight tables. I think since FS's tables are much more real and challenging than Zen's people want to accuse them of all of these different things to make up for not being able to play them good.

My only point was that the ball is in fact, not a 3d object, and has no z-axis movement in the US version of Williams collection. Personally I really enjoy the Williams collection, and am looking forward to the new release. This doesn't change the fact that their physics aren't perfect. FX2 isn't perfect either, but they are both still good products.

[Vincent]

Complete bull crap. Have you even played the Williams disc all the way through? And they can't design a ball? hahaha, ridiculous. Well me and the good folks at Zen will be playing all of the tables FarSight release.

Ok I only saw the videos and wasn't convinced at all, but I don't want to hurt your feelings I admit I was talking about something I know nothing about, forgive me, peace.

[Pbdrums001]

I can't say much for game play on the FS side, but I can say Zen's visuals are much MUCH better.

[peglegp]

Really . . . if Zen and FarSight did the same table, which one would you prefer to play?

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Really . . . if Zen and FarSight did the same table, which one would you prefer to play?

Would have to see and play them side by side.
And no offense taken Vincent. I just don't get all of this physics jargon and what not about FS's tables, since they play perfectly fine to me. ihearawitch calls it all BS too. He says if you consider yoourself a good PB player you should be able to bust scores out on both company's tables with out a problem. Zen said the same thing on Facebook. They don't get all of the FS hate, and that they will certainly be playing FS's tables too.

[Womble]

He says if you consider yoourself a good PB player you should be able to bust scores out on both company's tables with out a problem.

Why do you keep harping on about scores?

It's not about the PHOF leaderboards. It's about playability and enjoyment.

In your words, the tables are ...

.. picture perfect in EVERY way and detail.

That's quite a claim. But if you believe it, that's up to you. You're entitled to your opinion.

And MY opinion is that FarSight's physics are not authentic; they detract from the experience.

It's silly to diss other people's abilities (without even knowing their scores, no less) just because you disagree with their views.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Calm down big guy. I played WHOF before Zen, and I thoroughly enjoyed it and got addicted to pinball because of FarSight. I simply think most people here are just jumping on the let's hate on any other company's tables bandwagon. Proof of this, Vincent has never even played the WHOF disc. He is just making comments based off of what he sees on youtube. I mean, if you can't get ANY kind of enjoyment out of ANY of FS's tables, then you are most likely not a true pinball fan and just wanna be a pathetic Zen fanboy.
And since I can play most of the real tables IN PERSON on the WHOF disc and upcoming DLC and you can't, I think I'd listen to me and not you.

[Cloda]

Would have to see and play them side by side.
And no offense taken Vincent. I just don't get all of this physics jargon and what not about FS's tables, since they play perfectly fine to me. ihearawitch calls it all BS too. He says if you consider yoourself a good PB player you should be able to bust scores out on both company's tables with out a problem. Zen said the same thing on Facebook. They don't get all of the FS hate, and that they will certainly be playing FS's tables too.

In my opinion, that I have formed reading many reviews and other opinions and after playing Williams Pinball Classics myself, Williams Pinball Classics is not worth playing for me and especially not to put in the time to bust out scores. As such I will not recommend it to anybody else without explaining my reservations about the product:

- The ball feels like it is floating and not rolling.
- The ball looks like a grey sticker moving over the screen rather than a metallic pinball rolling.
- The angle that the ball comes off your flippers doesn't feel right... as such aiming feels completely off.
- Where others can see past that, I do not have fun because I don't have the nostalgic connection to the tables and as such the reasons above, annoying sounds, minimalistic table layouts for some e.g. Gorgar and features such as a lack of kickbacks are frustrating the heck out of me.

I have only played Williams Pinball Classics for around 10 hours in total (compared to 400+ hours for FX 2) and only had some fun on Whirlwind. There are some good things to say from me about the tutorials, the game mode where you play all the tables in one challenge and the "achievement" structure but not about the game-play itself.

So... I don't have much hope that the new product, based on my experience with their past products and based on their ultra short introductory video, will be to my satisfaction... but I will read reviews and listen to the opinion of guys like you, heathensauce, blue and others that have enjoyed the first games before writing it off.

[Womble]

I mean, if you can't get ANY kind of enjoyment out of ANY of FS's tables, then you are most likely not a true pinball fan and just wanna be a pathetic Zen fanboy.

Clumsy strawman building.

And since I can play most of the real tables IN PERSON on the WHOF disc and upcoming DLC and you can't, I think I'd listen to me and not you.

If you can't handle other people's opinions without resorting to personal attacks, save everyone the angst, head over to rec.games.pinball.

- Where others can see past that, I do not have fun because I don't have the nostalgic connection to the tables

I find having the nostalgia worsens the experience. I play Gorgar (which is a brutal, brutal table) on PHOF and it's not remotely like the real thing. I sank too much of my money in to that machine as a young man, and I know how it feels. PHOF doesn't capture it, mostly because of the physics (but also because of the non-emulated audio, or lack thereof).

You can capture some of the difference here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_JabSnowHU

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9tr_MBp4hI

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhRFMpm2rLM (careful! wonkycam in use!)

(Keep in mind that Gorgar is one of the better implementations in the set. Funhouse and Medieval Madness are rather more irksome. I think MM is borderline broken.)

Of course, you can never really go back. There's severe limits to the simulation, and no video pinball will ever capture that feel of a real machine. But when core elements (physics, audio) are lacking, it doesn't help. It just makes me yearn for my youth a bit more.

The problem isn't restricted to pinball. Many years ago I scored an Asteroids upright. Spent a long time carefully restoring it to her original beauty, played her a lot. (Sadly had to sell her.) Then I saw the XBLA "Game Arcade" version. What a total, utter, unmitigated POS. Looks and plays like MAME on the most basic settings. Some things just shouldn't be emulated/simulated.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Sorry but I wan't trying to attack you or anyone else. I thought that this was just a little bit of a heated conversation. I will let you know how well FS did with Theatre Of Magic, Black Hole, and Ripley's when they are released.

[Cloda]

Sorry but I wan't trying to attack you or anyone else. I thought that this was just a little bit of a heated conversation. I will let you know how well FS did with Theatre Of Magic, Black Hole, and Ripley's when they are released.

I also thought it was a bit of a heated discussion and that is why I gave my perspective Looking forward to the feedback... Theatre of Magic and Ripley's look like awesome tables.

[satch]

I'm with cloda on this one. i simply don't enjoy playing the Williams collection and i do have nostalgia for some of the real tables in the collection. i will give the new farsight tables a chance but i am not getting my hopes up, also not getting my hopes up that they will start releasing them in early 2012 though you would think as DLC they should avoid some of the delays with the CD version of Williams.

[ShinobiSteve]

The Williams collection was a nice release, and I played it more than PFX1 before 2 came out. I used it to try and learn tables for when I go out and play the tables for real. After FX2 came out though, I've mainly stuck with that and only pull out HOF every once in awhile. I am looking forward to the new game by Farsight, and hope they have better leaderboards and fix floaty balls. Those were my main issues with it.

[shogun00]

Would have to see and play them side by side.
And no offense taken Vincent. I just don't get all of this physics jargon and what not about FS's tables, since they play perfectly fine to me. ihearawitch calls it all BS too. He says if you consider yoourself a good PB player you should be able to bust scores out on both company's tables with out a problem. Zen said the same thing on Facebook. They don't get all of the FS hate, and that they will certainly be playing FS's tables too.

I personally don't hate FarSight and I give them a lot of credit for their efforts. Not many game companies are willing to try to emulate real pinball tables. However, I don't see their games as "the next best thing since sliced bread" like you do.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing their tables. FarSight does many things right, but there are many flaws as well in their PHOF series.

I've played Fun House and Whirlwind several times at the local arcades. FarSight's versions are pretty close to the real thing in design and animation. However, the game's physics engine is less to be desired.

Like others have said, the ball is floaty. This is also known as the "moon ball effect", which has been a known problem for most video pinball games since the 80s. Plain and simple, the ball doesn't look like it's rolling. Making it hard for us to predict the ball's projection. Something I can do easily on the real machines. Another issue I have is the ricocheting. For example, when the ball ricochets off the slingshots, the ball will magically shoot right back to the top of the playfield. This very annoying, since a real sling shot can't do that. They are only designed to change the projection of the ball heading to the flippers.

There's also some collision detection issues in the game. It's very hard to do back shots without hitting the slingshots. For example, I want to hit a hole on the left side of the table with the left flipper. However, for some reason the ball always hits the bottom of the slingshot instead. In the real machines, that never happens.

The biggest nagging issue of them all for me is the lack of customization in PHoF. Take a look at Zen's tables. Each one can be customized in every way you can think of in the operator's menu, including the table's incline. The incline can affect the ball's speed and momentum quite a bit. If this was included in PHoF, then I would probably be a little more forgiving on the physics engine, since I could counterbalance a few of my nagging issues with it. Oh and lets not forget about the forced controller layout. It would be nice if I had some controller options, other than the flipper buttons. I really don't like launching the ball with the right analog stick.

Note: I own the PS3 version of William's PHoF.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

I personally don't hate FarSight and I give them a lot of credit for their efforts. Not many game companies are willing to try to emulate real pinball tables. However, I don't see their games as "the next best thing since sliced bread" like you do.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing their tables. FarSight does many things right, but there are many flaws as well in their PHOF series.

I've played Fun House and Whirlwind several times at the local arcades. FarSight's versions are pretty close to the real thing in design and animation. However, the game's physics engine is less to be desired.

Like others have said, the ball is floaty. This is also known as the "moon ball effect", which has been a known problem for most video pinball games since the 80s. Plain and simple, the ball doesn't look like it's rolling. Making it hard for us to predict the ball's projection. Something I can do easily on the real machines. Another issue I have is the ricocheting. For example, when the ball ricochets off the slingshots, the ball will magically shoot right back to the top of the playfield. This very annoying, since a real sling shot can't do that. They are only designed to change the projection of the ball heading to the flippers.

There's also some collision detection issues in the game. It's very hard to do back shots without hitting the slingshots. For example, I want to hit a hole on the left side of the table with the left flipper. However, for some reason the ball always hits the bottom of the slingshot instead. In the real machines, that never happens.

The biggest nagging issue of them all for me is the lack of customization in PHoF. Take a look at Zen's tables. Each one can be customized in every way you can think of in the operator's menu, including the table's incline. The incline can affect the ball's speed and momentum quite a bit. If this was included in PHoF, then I would probably be a little more forgiving on the physics engine, since I could counterbalance a few of my nagging issues with it. Oh and lets not forget about the forced controller layout. It would be nice if I had some controller options, other than the flipper buttons. I really don't like launching the ball with the right analog stick.

Note: I own the PS3 version of William's PHoF.

I think if more people could play the FS tables in real life like I can, we would probably not see quite as many negative comments about them. Also, you should NOT be able to customize their tables. You can't walk into an arcade and set machines to any setting you want despite what some may think. Also, it's been almost three years since they put out the William's disc; four or five on the Gotlieb disc. So I'm sure after all of that time they will have tweaked and updated their physics and their floating ball thing that everyone seems to be stuck on. Obviously in the Pinball world nowadays you just sorta take what you can get. I'm blessed that Vegas happens to have one of the biggest pinball arcades in the world, so that I can go and see how good FarSight does on a lot of the tables they are gonna put out. The museum's FunhHouse has seen better days. You play the FunHouse on William's disc, see how fun it is, and get all amped up to play it in real life. But since the museum's FunHouse isn't in mint condition, you're like, damn, FarSight's table is actually better than the real thing,lol. Same goes for Tales of the Arabian Nights. Actually, same goes for Pinbot too,lol.

[IndyRC_Racer]

I've played PHOF on Wii and XBOX 360.

At best I would describe the ball/table physics like playing on a brand new table where all the rubber is new on the bumpers/rails, all the motorized parts (bumpers/slingbacks/flippers) work perfectly, and the playfield is clean.

While I don't mind playing on a table that feels brand new (something that I've only experienced a few times with a real life table in an arcade), I'd rather play on a table that has been broken in. A broken-in table is always more forgiving to play.

The only downside with an old real life table is a dirty table with worn out paths, weak bumpers, dead flippers, and greedy arcade attendants who set the playfield level t0o steep.

On the other hand I could describe the ball physics on PHOF like playing on a planet with less gravity than Earth (moon ball). Not only does it not feel like I'm playing something real, it makes it hard to predict the ball movement with any accuracy.

I've played most of the tables in the US version of PHOF in real life, and the only one that was close was Pinbot. All of the other tables felt off, so much so that I only played them to complete the challenges and achievements. I even sold my Wii game after completing all the challenges.

If Farsight could at least offer an option to change the table playfield angle, then I might consider trying them again. In the meantime, I'm more than happy with the current product from ZEN.

[Oskari14]

The only downside with an old real life table is a dirty table with worn out paths, weak bumpers, dead flippers, and greedy arcade attendants who set the playfield level t0o steep.

You forgot the large outlanes and broken rubbers!

[Womble]

Also, you should NOT be able to customize their tables. You can't walk into an arcade and set machines to any setting you want despite what some may think.

No, but as has already been pointed out to you, the machine settings can be changed by the operator.

Good luck changing the moonball physics of MM in PHOF though.

[Womble]

You forgot the large outlanes and broken rubbers!

Zen tables need more cigarette burns!

Actually, a "route" or "sited pin" mode could be interesting. Half the bulbs would be randomly burned out, initials could be scratched on the cabinet, the mylar would be peeling up and the flippers could barely make the ramp shots.

[wednesday]

Nothing ruins a table more than dead flippers. I want to fling the ball up there damn it!

[Womble]

Can't remember if this was ever linked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT_jNCvf_xc

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Nothing ruins a table more than dead flippers. I want to fling the ball up there damn it!

Another bogus statement. None of the William's tables have dead flippers.

[Womble]

Another bogus statement. None of the William's tables have dead flippers.

wednesday is referring to real life tables that exhibit flipper failure. i.e. the coils wear out, or are replaced incorrectly. It's very common.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

wednesday is referring to real life tables that exhibit flipper failure. i.e. the coils wear out, or are replaced incorrectly. It's very common.

Ok okay. Yeah that does suck. Luckily Tim Arnold is like a nazi about keeping his machines clean and working properly.

[Bababooeyville]

Ok, I checked out the short videos and im definitely interested. the ball movement does appear to be off though in the short clips, Hopefully this gets ironed out.
The thing that got me into pbfx2 is how great it FELT to play. It feels like I am hitting a metal ball. And with the subtle rumble effects it can be quite convincing. It feels good. Its probaly not an easy thing to pull off.

[Solitude]

Ok okay. Yeah that does suck. Luckily Tim Arnold is like a nazi about keeping his machines clean and working properly.

Let him know that the rollover on the rocket launch on twilight zone is stiff. It keeps the ball from going all the way into the saucer and results in a weak launch - often straight down the middle.

Or at least, that was the case when I went a week and a half ago.

[Alipan]

Why was Solitude playing Twilight Zone - research?

/likes starting rumours

[ShoryukenToTheChin]

Twilight Zone is awesome no doubt. I remember seeing this for the first time -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyI0c4sRN_w

[Womble]

Why was Solitude playing Twilight Zone - research?

/likes starting rumours

I think the Hungarian office has a Twilight Zone. You can see some of its influence in Sorcerer's Lair.

[Silverway]

Personally I don't see as "who makes better pinball games? who's physics are better?" I see both Zen Studios and Farsight Studios different flavors of pinball. I love Zen for making fun and fantastic tables that are near impossible to recreate in real life without breaking too much reality. I love Farsight for taking us down Pinball Memory Lane and letting us re enjoy the classic licensed tables that we grew up with. You take the old with the new. That's how I see it.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Personally I don't see as "who makes better pinball games? who's physics are better?" I see both Zen Studios and Farsight Studios different flavors of pinball. I love Zen for making fun and fantastic tables that are near impossible to recreate in real life without breaking too much reality. I love Farsight for taking us down Pinball Memory Lane and letting us re enjoy the classic licensed tables that we grew up with. You take the old with the new. That's how I see it.

Exactly. Plus, Zen is into making original tables. They will always be around. FarSight can only make so many real tables, especially the better ones.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

Let him know that the rollover on the rocket launch on twilight zone is stiff. It keeps the ball from going all the way into the saucer and results in a weak launch - often straight down the middle.

Or at least, that was the case when I went a week and a half ago.

Will do. He's there at nights more than days it seems.

[Womble]

It's not about Zen vs FarSight.

It's about the playability of each game, and what can/should be done to improve those games.

Plenty of people around here are pretty vocal about how Zen can improve. It's no different for FarSight, except that FarSight don't provide feedback or much in the way of communication.

Competition is good.

Having said that, I do hope that Zen have been able to secure some top-shelf licenses for a Zen Classics range. I think games like MM or Attack from Mars deserves better than current offerings, and I'm sure Zen will provide the necessary attention to detail.

[Bababooeyville]

Wish they would put out a little more info on this. Those videos barely showed anything.
Do they have a release date?
Its not like pinball games can be compared to fps'(crowded as hell). We are all pb fans, there is plenty of room for more.
I got that pinball jones man

[Solitude]

Why was Solitude playing Twilight Zone - research?

/likes starting rumours

I wish we were doing a Twilight Zone table! But sadly, no. I just wanted to visit the place while I was on vacation in Las Vegas and play some tables we don't have in the office. Got to play some tables I hadn't seen in quite a while - Black Knight 2000, Revenge from Mars, Guns n Roses, Medieval Madness, etc. Great fun and quite cheap.

[Womble]

I wish we were doing a Twilight Zone table!

You have broken my wombly heart.

[lasvegaspinballhalloffame]

I wish we were doing a Twilight Zone table! But sadly, no. I just wanted to visit the place while I was on vacation in Las Vegas and play some tables we don't have in the office. Got to play some tables I hadn't seen in quite a while - Black Knight 2000, Revenge from Mars, Guns n Roses, Medieval Madness, etc. Great fun and quite cheap.

RFM rules. Solitude, will Zen be making any real tables any time soon?

[ShinobiSteve]

RFM rules. Solitude, will Zen be making any real tables any time soon?

With all of the licenses already picked up by Farsight, do you think Zen would? Only one or two big companies that FS is missing. I, and others would rather Zen keep up with what they're doing, with OPs.