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Thread: Complain about Plants VS Zombies being much too easy

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Default Complain about Plants VS Zombies being much too easy

    Now I really don't get the point, and I'm angry.

    My father and I like playing hot-seat multiplayer together, but now with this table, the same thing happened to us as with Ms. Splosion man : I start playing my first ball, then I play for an hour and there is just no way I can lose the ball, and when I do, I have plenty of Extra Balls following, and it goes on and on forever, then I say to my father : "ok, please play my 4th extra ball because we are both bored like hell" and then after he played a long time and got a 5th extra ball, we both decide to TURN THE XBOX OFF.

    So, how much time does it take to lose your first ball ?? I really wonder, because I couldn't go as far as trying such an extreme experiment.. anybody has a clue ? Even if we have a lot of spare time, is that how we want to spend it ? (-no, sorry, waste it...?) But really, is that what a game should be, seriously ? Zen, if you have decided to give up aiming at adults and to start making tables for 5-year-olds, just tell us !


    Quotes :


    "Not a bad table but not much playability. My first game I managed to get 5 extra balls (on the first ball) and finish the wizard mode (beat the Zombot) and got to the bonus scoring multi-ball without really trying. The game took me an hour and a half and I basically got bored with it. I'll probably play it only a couple more times to try and get a billion and that will be it. There is not even one difficult mission including the Wizard mode. So... if you are a big fan of Ms. Splosion Man marathon session games this table is for you. Just too easy. Come on Zen... please ramp up the difficulty a bit. I for one don't want marathon sessions, I'll rather play lots of shorter games where I can repeatedly try to improve. The real tables from Pinball Arcade is mostly playing like that... if only they had your physics engine and graphics it would have been perfect." (Cloda)


    "I understand that sometimes you have to lower the difficulty, specially for licenses, to find new players, etc. But you shouldn't make too easy tables just for this reason : I became addicted by performing hard challenges, with FX2. Otherwise, you'll find new players who have purchased a table, will play once... and return to other occupations. Sorry but if I'd discovered FX2 with Plants, I wouldn't have bought the other tables, and missed everything ! In my opinion, Marvel quality tables increases, and decreases for Pinball FX2. Zen is more inspired with Marvel tables ? (Fear itself, Infinity Gauntle, Avengers... tables really different !) " (Wims)


    "I played 1 game that took over an hour and I beat the wizard mode. I didn't even really learn the basics of the table that well. I just kept the ball in play and shot the flashing lanes, etc. I got 5 extra balls and I don't even know how I got a single one of them. I'm sure I'll play it a few more times but I don't really have much left to accomplish and I never even read the rule sheet yet." (PSKay)

    "My wife just played and got 5 extra balls." (Lasvegaspinballhalloffame)

    "I love it but I don't like the fact that the games are taking so long to actually finish. I feel the balls/peas are to easy to keep in play. There are some times I have multiball that last for almost 10 minutes. [...] This table is too easy and I'm starting to get a bit bored with doing the same Multiball over and over as the ramp is way to easy to hit. I do understand that they want to bring in more pinball players to enjoy Zen pinball and PVZ i one of trendy games that people can identify with. I just wish it was a bit more challenging and not one of those marathon tables. " (Tenorhero)
    Last edited by Vincent; 11-12-2012 at 03:31 PM.

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    Lol good post.

    I agree with what you say - far too easy. I was bored with it after 20 minutes or so.

    Its pinball Jim but not as we know it.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    A new patch was released on the PS3/Vita versions of the table and it's much more harder now. It's not easy to get an extra ball (kickbacks, ball save) or the Mailbox multiball anymore.

    I'm not sure if there will be a patch for the 360 version, but Zen has acknowledged that the table is way too easy to grind.
    Last edited by shogun00; 11-13-2012 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    A new patch was released on the PS3/Vita versions of the table and it's much more harder now. It's not easy to get an extra ball or the Mailbox multiball anymore.

    I'm not sure if there will be a patch for the 360 version, but Zen has acknowledged that the table is way too easy to grind.

    Interesting – I know it’s easier (read cheaper) to do a patch on the PS3.

    Off the top of my head xbox owners are waiting for fixes to Paranormal, the Avengers black widow ramp and now it seems PvZ.

    I would honestly prefer it if Zen released the Xbox version a month after PS3 if it meant that the tables came out OK.

    If its that difficult to patch the xbox just get it right first time – the problems seem the same on the PS3 version so why not
    see what occurs with that version before releasing it on the xbox.

    Btw did Zen reset the leaderboards for PvZ on PS3 as well – Im guessing probably not?

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    Senior Member Nekro Neko's Avatar
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    I must admit, I've grown bored of FX2 because of the way the DLC tables have been getting easier and easier. I feel like I'm being treated like one of "God's little special children". It's almost like my hand is being held all the way, with few risky shots, shots you don't even need to take most of the time. I understand that I've become somewhat competent at the game, but I've had long periods where I don't play the game and I come back when a DLC table comes out and I feel like I've gotten rusty, yet I'm able to maintain my ball for longer. I know this has been said before, and I hope this is taken on board for FX3 but can we have a "Pro" mode where the flippers are further apart, extra balls are fewer in number and much more risky to earn and wider outlanes? Put the challenge back in the game.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alipan View Post
    Btw did Zen reset the leaderboards for PvZ on PS3 as well – Im guessing probably not?
    No they didn't, but then again I don't think it's necessary. The skilled players will be able to beat the high scores, since it is slightly easier to get to wizard mode now. After all, you don't have to deal with the Mailbox Multiple so often anymore.
    Last edited by shogun00; 11-13-2012 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alipan View Post
    Interesting – I know it’s easier (read cheaper) to do a patch on the PS3.

    Off the top of my head xbox owners are waiting for fixes to Paranormal, the Avengers black widow ramp and now it seems PvZ.

    I would honestly prefer it if Zen released the Xbox version a month after PS3 if it meant that the tables came out OK.

    If its that difficult to patch the xbox just get it right first time – the problems seem the same on the PS3 version so why not
    see what occurs with that version before releasing it on the xbox.

    Btw did Zen reset the leaderboards for PvZ on PS3 as well – Im guessing probably not?
    Oh man--if we waited a month to release on Xbox not only would we lose a lot of sales, we'd likely lose customers. We get enough people mad about exclusives/timed exclusives, and even though we are working toward making as many tables available on as many platforms as possible, people still get mad. I know you would be okay with waiting, but that can't be said for everyone.

    We did not reset leaderboards for PvZ... we'd have an angry mob on our hands

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    A new patch was released on the PS3/Vita versions of the table and it's much more harder now. It's not easy to get an extra ball (kickbacks, ball save) or the Mailbox multiball anymore.

    I'm not sure if there will be a patch for the 360 version, but Zen has acknowledged that the table is way too easy to grind.

    This is really good news, thank you for telling us, I couldn't know since I don't own a PS3. I wish all poorly balanced tables (in both ways, see Buccaneer) would receive the same treatment, and on both consoles.

    That being said, if on the one hand I'm really happy and satisfied by the fact that Zen apparently acknowledged the problem, I still can't understand at all how they can first release a table and, only after, realize how boringly easy it is.

    I admit I never created any video game in my life, but still, I would think that before releasing a product, you first make sure that everything is ok -- I don't mean perfect, of course, but the problem we are talking about here is not minor, it's a huge one, it's one that questions the very fun and purpose of the whole table, and it's, I dare say, very obvious and quite easy to spot, since you only have to play the game for a few minutes in order to see it. So that's very annoying and not quite forgivable.

    As we said many times (and I say "we" because I'm not the only one saying that...), we wouldn't mind if the rhythm at which tables are released were a little slower-paced, but please, what we like is an interesting, well thought out, well finished, well polished, and most of all, well balanced table. We want high-quality tables, in every aspect : no endless ball savers or extra balls, and -we saw this so many times in the past few years- no more horrible bugs that spoil your game when you're achieving a 5 billion score. And I'm a long-time fan.
    Last edited by Vincent; 11-13-2012 at 07:44 PM.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I admit I never created any video game in my life, but still, I would think that before releasing a product, you first make sure that everything is ok -- I don't mean perfect, of course, but the problem we are talking about here is not minor, it's a huge one, it's one that questions the very fun and purpose of the whole table, and it's, I dare say, very obvious and quite easy to spot, since you only have to play the game for a few minutes in order to understand it. So that's very annoying and not quite forgivable.

    So, like we said many times (and I say "we" because I'm not the only one saying that...), we wouldn't mind if the rhythm at which tables are released were a little slower-paced, but please, what we like is an interesting, well thought out, well finished, well polished, and most of all, well balanced table. And I'm a long-time fan.
    It could be pretty easy to answer. Perhaps the people at Zen aren't really good at these games.

    Just look at how the infamous Konami Code was created and it starts to make sense. The Konami Code was created because a programmer (Kazuhisa Hashimoto) sucked at playing the game (Gradius) he coded. He created that cheat so he can test the later levels of the game properly. Back then, it was quite common for the programmer to test their own work. Many indie game companies do the same thing and Zen Studios is probably no exception.

    Perhaps the testers at Zen suck at these tables and play the game at easier settings (through the operator's menu) to make sure that the table is working properly.

    Perhaps only the pros are going to realize how dull the table is because it's so easy and that might be the reason why they didn't realize it.
    Last edited by shogun00; 11-13-2012 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Reworded post to not sound "insulting". I never intended it to be so to begin with.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post

    Only the pros are going to realize how dull the table is because it's so easy and that's probably the reason why they didn't realize it.

    It's an interesting point but still hard to believe. I'm not a pro at all, and my dad almost never plays video games and is not particularly good. We are average players.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    It's pretty easy to answer. Perhaps the people at Zen aren't really good at these games.

    Just look at how the infamous Konami Code was created and it starts to make sense. The Konami Code was created because a programmer (Kazuhisa Hashimoto) sucked at playing the game (Gradius) he coded. He created that cheat so he can test the later levels of the game properly. Back then, it was quite common for the programmer to test their own work. Many indie game companies do the same thing and Zen Studios is no exception.

    I wouldn't be too surprised if the testers at Zen suck at these tables and play the game at easier settings (through the operator's menu) to make sure that the table is working properly.

    Only the pros are going to realize how dull the table is because it's so easy and that's probably the reason why they didn't realize it.
    That's incredibly insulting. Don't you think that maybe we made the game "easy" so it would be fun for more than just the top players? People freaked out after Iron Man, we learned our lesson there. I know that some of you are amazing pinball players, and that's great. But the majority of people who bought the game are not. They are casual players who saw a new table based on a casual game they played (which is also incredibly easy) so they picked it up. I know the producer at PopCap and the designer here at Zen are both very proud of it (despite a few bugs that came up after launch) and are both incredibly passionate about pinball.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarbieBobomb View Post
    That's incredibly insulting. Don't you think that maybe we made the game "easy" so it would be fun for more than just the top players? People freaked out after Iron Man, we learned our lesson there. I know that some of you are amazing pinball players, and that's great. But the majority of people who bought the game are not. They are casual players who saw a new table based on a casual game they played (which is also incredibly easy) so they picked it up. I know the producer at PopCap and the designer here at Zen are both very proud of it (despite a few bugs that came up after launch) and are both incredibly passionate about pinball.
    I didn't mean to sound insulting Barbie. I was just coming up with a possibility. That's all!

    I have even made a few posts in the past of the possibility, that you guys are making the tables easier for the casual players. This time I wrote the possibility that the testers/programmers may just not be good at playing the game.

    Ugh! It can be hard sometime to portray my thoughts with just words alone. Please don't take my posts too seriously. They are just filled with possibilities, thoughts and opinions. I try to keep them insulting free as possible.

    **Editing here I go**
    Last edited by shogun00; 11-13-2012 at 09:02 PM.

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    Good thread - feel like some of the mists surrounding the zen mindset are clearing. Seems like, as I suspected, they made a conscious decision to go casual. Not the game I fell in love with but there you go...bad luck for me.

    Nothing wrong with easy tables but unfortunately that tends to go hand in hand with long games and thats when people get bored.

    This thread needs the opinion of some new / beginner players and what they think of the PvZ table.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alipan View Post
    Good thread - feel like some of the mists surrounding the zen mindset are clearing. Seems like, as I suspected, they made a conscious decision to go casual. Not the game I fell in love with but there you go...bad luck for me.

    Nothing wrong with easy tables but unfortunately that tends to go hand in hand with long games and thats when people get bored.

    This thread needs the opinion of some new / beginner players and what they think of the PvZ table.
    When we had the table set up at PAX, we had a lot of people play it who weren't too familiar with Pinball FX2/Zen Pinball but they picked it up and seemed to really like it. Even elsewhere (Facebook/Twitter) it seems like the more experienced players don't care for it much but the newer, less experienced ones like it.

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    Plants versus Zombies is a super easy table.
    If that made me angry, then I wouldn't be bragging about it.

    That said, I am really interested in opinions about what makes a table hard and enjoyable, compared to hard and sucky, compared to easy and enjoyable, compared to easy and sucky. I have personally experienced all 4 of these combinations.
    I want to like playing Plants versus Zombies, but I get bored. Same happens to me with Mars, Space Shuttle, and Monster Bash. I think it might be the lack of a dangerous shot. I don't know. On all four of those tables, I have to decide when to stop playing. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, I just play them much less frequently. Different strokes yo.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarbieBobomb View Post
    People freaked out after Iron Man, we learned our lesson there. I know that some of you are amazing pinball players, and that's great. But the majority of people who bought the game are not. They are casual players who saw a new table based on a casual game they played (which is also incredibly easy) so they picked it up. I know the producer at PopCap and the designer here at Zen are both very proud of it (despite a few bugs that came up after launch) and are both incredibly passionate about pinball.

    I am not sure if you understand. My dad is a very casual player and not particularly gifted with a joypad in his hands, and however he agrees with me that this table is horribly easy. So stop saying we are amazing players, some of us are just normal players giving their point of view, and this is just what you seem to refuse to hear.

    You talk about Iron Man, do you think it's intellectually honest to take this example here ? That table is known to be a very hard table with a very low ball longevity. Come on, please don't pretend there is no compromise between Iron Man and Plants. I, and other people after me, spent quite some time on a work attempting to classify the tables according to their difficulty level, trying to be as objective as possible, patiently counting the number of people reaching 100.000, as well as the number of 500.000s, and the number of billionaires, trying to isolate such criteria as easy/average/hard scoring and long/average/short ball longevity. The thread was called "Table difficulty levels based upon scoring statistics". Of course Iron Man was among the hardest tables, but Ms Splosion Man was among the very easy ones, and PvZ would fall into this category. Did you by any chance happen to read that thread ?

    Here is the link
    https://forum.zenstudios.com/showthr...ing-statistics
    Last edited by Vincent; 11-13-2012 at 09:13 PM.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clydebink View Post
    That said, I am really interested in opinions about what makes a table hard and enjoyable, compared to hard and sucky, compared to easy and enjoyable, compared to easy and sucky. I have personally experienced all 4 of these combinations.
    Difficulty isn't an issue with me. I'm fine with playing easy tables and hard tables, because real pinball machines are the same way. Some tables are much easier than others.

    The problem I'm having with pinball in general is the same as on fighting games, which is the flow and balance. When the balance and flow are off, it makes the game less desirable to play. I can't put my finger on it, but the Plants vs Zombies table's balance and flow felt off. Perhaps, it was because it was way too easy to start up the Mailbox Multiball mode. It made it difficult to work on the missions and disrupted the flow, since I could randomly start it up without even realizing it.
    Last edited by shogun00; 11-13-2012 at 09:17 PM. Reason: I hope that came out right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I am not sure if you understand. My dad is a very casual player and not particularly gifted with a joypad in his hands, and however he agrees with me that this table is horribly easy. So stop saying we are amazing players, some of us are just normal players giving their point of view, and this is just what you seem to refuse to hear.

    You talk about Iron Man, do you think it's intellectually honest to take this example here ? That table is known to be a very hard table with a very low ball longevity. Come on, please don't pretend there is no compromise between Iron Man and Plants. I, and other people after me, spent quite some time on a work attempting to classify the tables according to their difficulty level, trying to be as objective as possible, patiently counting the number of people reaching 100.000, as well as the number of 500.000s, and the number of billionaires, trying to isolate such criteria as easy/average/hard scoring and long/average/short ball longevity. The thread was called "Table difficulty levels based upon scoring statistics". Of course Iron Man was among the hardest tables, but Ms Splosion Man was among the very easy ones, and PvZ would fall into this category. Did you by any chance happen to read that thread ?

    Here is the link
    https://forum.zenstudios.com/showthr...ing-statistics
    My point was that we try to make tables of varying difficulty. That is all.

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    I don't think anyone can really begrudge tables being designed for new players - in hindsight how could a PvZ table be anything other than casual?

    I guess the frustration amongst experienced players is that all single table releases seem to be going that way now.

    I still think there must be a way of making a table suitable and enjoyable for players of all levels though - or am I asking too much from something that only costs £1.

    Curious to see what we get from Civil War now.....

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarbieBobomb View Post
    My point was that we try to make tables of varying difficulty. That is all.
    This is of course an incredibly good idea to make game difficulty vary, but why make it depend on the tables ? Why not allow the player to choose, for each table, between 5 difficulty levels (with separated leaderboards, of course), with specific table settings for each one ? Wouldn't that be awesome ? That way, every kind of player could enjoy every table ! I am sure this is a feature that we will see in PFX3, or isn't it ?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarbieBobomb View Post
    Oh man--if we waited a month to release on Xbox not only would we lose a lot of sales, we'd likely lose customers. We get enough people mad about exclusives/timed exclusives, and even though we are working toward making as many tables available on as many platforms as possible, people still get mad. I know you would be okay with waiting, but that can't be said for everyone.

    We did not reset leaderboards for PvZ... we'd have an angry mob on our hands
    Whoa Barbie, you are lucky you put that smiley face at the end of that comment. You got awfully close to calling xbox players fanboys. ;-)
    Last edited by surf1der; 11-13-2012 at 09:54 PM. Reason: Forgot to put in my smiley face

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    Quote Originally Posted by surf1der View Post
    Whoa Barbie, you are lucky you put that smiley face at the end of that comment. You got awfully close to calling xbox players fanboys.
    OH JEEZ. We can't have that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    Difficulty isn't an issue with me. I'm fine with playing easy tables and hard tables, because real pinball machines are the same way. Some tables are much easier than others.

    The problem I'm having with pinball in general is the same as on fighting games, which is the flow and balance. When the balance and flow are off, it makes the game less desirable to play. I can't put my finger on it, but the Plants vs Zombies table's balance and flow felt off. Perhaps, it was because it was way too easy to start up the Mailbox Multiball mode. It made it difficult to work on the missions and disrupted the flow, since I could randomly start it up without even realizing it.
    I agree entirely. I do like how the multiball can start during a mode, but it does start way to frequently and without my intent. That's actually my problem with Mars too, I get stuck in the pyramid multiball. What creates that multi-ball limbo? Maybe if multiball can be started too soon after the last, then all my drains are happening during a multi-ball and so my game never ends.
    Now that I think of it, it's the same problem I have with Space Shuttle.
    Last edited by clydebink; 11-13-2012 at 10:25 PM.

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    Senior Member Vincent's Avatar
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    For sure the low-G multiball in Mars is fun a couple of times but then it becomes a real pain in the ass.

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    If a few easier tables get more people buying Zen products, I'm all for it. When you get the zombie challenges up to a high level they DO become hard though!!
    http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ The City Is My Church

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    Sign me up for pro mode.

    I actually like mars, but i agree that plants vs zombies is not suitable for hot seat play.

    Additionally, a lot of tables have very easy to relight kickbacks and ball savers.

    Games where it's way to easy to relight one or both.

    1) Sorcerer's lair (way too easy to relight both)
    2) Mars: very easy kickbacks.
    3) any game that relights the ballsaver from the in/outlanes. I forget all that do that, but quite a few of them do. I lbeieve paranormal, street fighter tribute, and el dorado to be examples.

    And some of them hand out extra balls like candy.

    1) Spiderman. Two available every ball until you hit the cap. The webslinger award is really easy to collect once you know how to. the kickbacks are actually hard because many of the feeds skip the inlanes, which is a smart decision.
    2) plants vs zombies.

    Most real pinball games do not let you relight the ballsavers adn kickbacks so easily. for example a side bank of targets is usually what relights the kickback, and you need a random award or a multiball start to relight a ball saver.

    Here's some ideas to make the game harder but less frustration while doing so.

    1) double drain proof the multiballs. have it so if you lose your last two balls of the multiball at the same time, it will return one of them to you (but cancel the restart/last minute jackpot collect)

    2) make multiballs harder to relight after getting to them the first time. Here's an example for sorcerer's lair. Locks are way too easy to relight, which also leads to many many ball savers.

    For gargolyle multiball, have it so after the first multiball, you need an additional shot to open the gargoyle. For Sorcerer multiball, require an additional shot to the ramp each time through. This stops people from relighting the ballsaver like candy. Citadel multiball probably can stay as is, but a similar fix could be applied to it.

    Another real pinball trick that makes games a lot more fun for casual players is to light multiball for free if you have yet to get it. For sorcerer's lair, i'd do this by having it so that if you haven't gotten any multiballs, the first gargoyle lock or sorcerer vanish will start multiball.

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    Well, they reversed the trend with the Star Wars tables. I wouldn't label any of them as easy.

    As someone pointed on another thread some time ago, the difference between a real table and Zen is that in the arcade, they are trying to make money. It doesn't do the arcade any good to have people at a table for 30 minutes, let alone a couple hours. Obviously, that's not an issue on a console. The main thing Zen needs to do is convince someone to buy the tables.

    I think it depends on the nature of the table. A table that is prone to having balls go down the outlanes probably should have easier kickbacks to make up for it. As for extra balls and ball savers, same deal. For example, it is very clear in my opinion that Empire and Boba Fett are designed around the fact that you need to get those extra balls.

    Using the Sorcerer's Lair table, while I agree it is an easier one, I think the balance is decent. Kickbacks are somewhat easy, but you will lose them with the easy to start multiballs. And they are necessary since sometimes the ball will fall from the bumpers down the left outlane for a very cheap ballout; the kickback saves you from this.

    For the ball save, I think it's main purpose is to give you a reason to shoot the Whisper hole and/or attempt Elusion combos. otherwise, those shots are too dangerous and the reward is too low to risk.

    I don't find the Gargoyle multiball high scoring enough to really spam. Sorcerer's multiball is worthwhile, but it takes a lot more effort to start. Really, the main way to score high is just spam the missions, and really only try to complete the numerous safe ones (Behind the Walls, Escape the Cellar, etc. ).


    I do like the double drain protection idea. Sucks when you lose one that way. Annoying or unfair ball outs drive me nuts.

    Infinity Gauntlet is a harder table than World War Hulk. But I like Gauntlet better because most of the ball out are fair and there's nothing real annoying about it.
    World War Hulk, on the other hand, you can lose a ball by correctly hitting the mission gate using the left flipper. The Warbound orbit can lead outs also. Annoying.
    Tables completed: Ms Splosion Man, Spiderman, BioLab, Captain America, Empire Strikes Back, The Avengers, Wolverine, World War Hulk, Sorcerer's Lair, Fantastic Four, Blade, X-Men, Thor, Moon Knight, Infinity Gauntlet, Super League Football, Starfighter Assault, Han Solo
    Billionaire's Club: Spider-Man, World War Hulk, The Avengers, Sorcerer's Lair, Empire Strikes Back, Captain America, Ms. Splosion Man, Han Solo

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    156

    Default

    the real issue with balls being so easy to lock on sorcerers lair is that it relights the ball saver.

    The multiball modes aren't that high scoring, it's the fact that you can keep relighting that ballsaver so easily. That's how I play forever on that table. i keep relighting that ballsaver over and over.have the mode start hole open, but no ballsaver? relight it by locking a ball in the gargoyle first. It not up? relight the ballsaver before flailing at the standups that relight it.

    Another way to handle the multiballs is to have it NOT relight the ballsaver when you lock a ball, but give you a skillshot instead.

    Now on a table like, say, Iron Man, you really need to relight those kickbacks. The standups blocking the mode start hole are NOT safe to shoot, and can cause right drains. Because i know to make the effort to relight the kickbacks, a lot of the so called difficulty of the table goes away, though it's still pretty low scoring. I actually wouls rank the original marvel tables, from easiest to hardest.

    Spiderman (probably second only to Plants vs. Zombies, even though kickbacks are not so easy to light)
    Blade
    Iron Man
    Wolverine

    On the other hand, El Dorado has the BALL SAVER on the inlanes, and thus you can play for AGES. On the ps2 version, you can lift the upper left flipper and plunge the ball under it full strength from the plunger every time, and do the same for every auto plunged ball (such as from the ballsaver). if you make a serious effort to do it, you can keep the ballsaver going for AGES.

    Tesla is harder, although it's ball saver is easily lit as well.

    PS: M.A.R.S would be astly improved by stronger slingshots, to fling the ball at those nearly unhittable side targets.

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