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Thread: Flipper tricks with the ZP2 physics.

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    Default Flipper tricks with the ZP2 physics.

    With the updated physics in Zen Pinball 2, what is your experience with achieving real life flipper tricks?

    For example and for comparison, in Pinball Arcade I've gotten very used to allowing bounce passes to happen - ball is allowed to fall onto an idle flipper, which with enough momentum tends to bounce the ball naturally to the opposite flipper.

    In ZP2 though, the flippers don't feel very "rubbery" to ball contact. So when ball fall on them, they tend to stick and roll rather than bounce. I'm curious about how things are tuned to allow for realistic flipper techniques currently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinosaur Toy View Post
    With the updated physics in Zen Pinball 2, what is your experience with achieving real life flipper tricks?

    For example and for comparison, in Pinball Arcade I've gotten very used to allowing bounce passes to happen - ball is allowed to fall onto an idle flipper, which with enough momentum tends to bounce the ball naturally to the opposite flipper.

    In ZP2 though, the flippers don't feel very "rubbery" to ball contact. So when ball fall on them, they tend to stick and roll rather than bounce. I'm curious about how things are tuned to allow for realistic flipper techniques currently.

    IMO Zen's balls have too much weight compared to the more floaty Physics. So ball control can be much easier attained on Zen's tables compared to PA. It's my only gripe for both publishers. PA is getting better but I still find older table DLC's have yet to catch up on some of the newer tables.

    I'm surprised you're having difficulty with the bounce pass though. You can post pass on the slings and other techniques as well. Not all but some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenorhero View Post
    IMO Zen's balls have too much weight compared to the more floaty Physics. So ball control can be much easier attained on Zen's tables compared to PA. It's my only gripe for both publishers. PA is getting better but I still find older table DLC's have yet to catch up on some of the newer tables.

    I'm surprised you're having difficulty with the bounce pass though. You can post pass on the slings and other techniques as well. Not all but some.
    I think my problem is I've come from going hardcore to master a couple of PA tables, so the weight and faster downhill speed of the Zen balls is messing with my head. I can't react in time.

    But that is why I'm practicing with Zen seriously next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinosaur Toy View Post
    I think my problem is I've come from going hardcore to master a couple of PA tables, so the weight and faster downhill speed of the Zen balls is messing with my head. I can't react in time.

    But that is why I'm practicing with Zen seriously next.
    Yeah playing both back to back can be a wake up call. Timing of shots is different. Zen's flippers seem pretty powerful compared to PA.

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    Senior Member snakeman07's Avatar
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    Yeah, flipper bouncing is very easy in ZP2. Just play a little longer and it'll sink in.

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    Ball physics are completely diff between the two...I cant nudge pass on tpa...in fact, I cant even come close to a death save, lol. And some of those tables have ridiculous ball drains. I can't tell ya how many I've lost from the plunger right off the bat. Still has fun tables though, its cool to play the real life ones. Anyone played scared stiff yet? I had no idea how adult themed it was lol.
    Last edited by MarkItZeroSmoky; 02-16-2013 at 08:30 AM.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakeman07 View Post
    Yeah, flipper bouncing is very easy in ZP2. Just play a little longer and it'll sink in.
    I call it Dead Flipper Passing myself, but yes it's pretty easy to do in ZP2.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkItZeroSmoky View Post
    Ball physics are completely diff between the two...I cant nudge pass on tpa...in fact, I cant even come close to a death save, lol.
    To be fair, Nudge Passing is a technique that Zen created with their over the top nudge mechanics. It doesn't exist in real pinball machines, so TPA doesn't support it either. Bang Backs (aka Death Saves) are doable, but they are very tricky to preform. I've only successfully pulled it off about 5 times on TPA, while in ZP2 I can do them about 50% of the time.

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    Senior Member ER777's Avatar
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    I think the only flipper trick that can't be done in Zen2 is the live catch, but maybe I just can't time it correctly. I don't think that can be done in TPA either though.

    I've done a few drop catches by accident playing Zen2, so I know its possible.. although I never dare to try on purpose. The timing for them needs to be so precise (just like in real life) that I just don't think its worth trying. These can't be done in TPA right now but I hear they're working on making it possible.

    Bounce passes are commonplace in both games, no problems there. You really need to rely on them in TPA a lot because its so hard to control the ball otherwise. You do need to be careful about letting the ball bounce too close to the base of the flipper in either game though. If it hits above the base at all it will just roll down (just like in real life).

    Post passes and those little flick passes (like where you just bounce the ball lightly on the end of the flipper - don't know the proper name for that) seem easier to do in Zen games.

    Ball physics may slightly favor TPA in terms of closeness to reality but I think overall the flipper mechanics are better in Zen's games.


    As far as nudging goes I echo Shogun's comments. I think that's the biggest difference between the two games. I do nudge passes completely casually in Zen games while its impossible in TPA for me. I do bang-backs with ease in Zen games while its extremely difficult in TPA (and only seems possible on a couple tables) for me. Reality for nudging is much closer to TPA. If you've ever tried these things on a real table you know its really tough and you have to hit the table really hard to move the ball that much, which often leads to a tilt (and usually gets you nasty looks from people too).

    All of that being said I'm glad Zen's physics are the way they are though. They give you enhanced abilities to allow you to go after more difficult missions and table goals. Its like playing a different style of pinball, a style more in line with the gaming world than a simulation of reality. I personally enjoy playing both.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ER777 View Post
    I think the only flipper trick that can't be done in Zen2 is the live catch, but maybe I just can't time it correctly.
    It's not easy to do, but it can be done on ZP2. I have pulled it off a couple of times now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    It's not easy to do, but it can be done on ZP2. I have pulled it off a couple of times now.
    I should have figured as much, it is that I just can't time it correctly. I should have known that if a drop catch is possible then a live catch would be too.

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    In both games, I think drop catches are harder than in reality. They're doable, but fail often enough that I've given up. Drop catches on real tables rarely fail; they're that easy to do. Live catches, on the other hand, I don't bother with in ZP2 or TPA. The flippers are so strong in each game that bad timing causes the ball to fly away. Bounce passes usually work fine.

    The one thing I really can't do in ZP2 or TPA are tip passes. Granted, it's so easy to stop the ball on the flipper that they're usually not necessary, but it's an important skill when playing real tables.

    One thing to note for MarkIt is that real pins tend to drain quickly. A missed shot, no matter how innocuous, is likely to drain. That's just how the tables are designed.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiralfox View Post
    The one thing I really can't do in ZP2 or TPA are tip passes. Granted, it's so easy to stop the ball on the flipper that they're usually not necessary, but it's an important skill when playing real tables.
    I've done tip passes quite a few times now on both ZP2 and TPA. I try to avoid using them in TPA, since some of the tables have some nasty collision detection issues near the flipper tips. I've lost count at how many times the ball went right through the tip of the flipper.

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    another trick i like is when you cradle two balls on one flipper and tap the flipper causing the ball closest to the tip to bounce leaving the other ball unmoved and then use it for a focused shot, this works in TPA as well.

    only thing that would be neat to do is Stalls TPA may be applying this tactic soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    I've done tip passes quite a few times now on both ZP2 and TPA. I try to avoid using them in TPA, since some of the tables have some nasty collision detection issues near the flipper tips. I've lost count at how many times the ball went right through the tip of the flipper.
    ya it drives me nuts, medieval madness seems to be the worst for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabidShark View Post
    medieval madness seems to be the worst for that.
    Have you played Big Shot yet? I swear the balls-through-the-flipper action was non-stop! They're supposed to have a fix for that issue coming soon though..

    But with Star Wars Pinball coming I probably won't be thinking about TPA much for a while anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ER777 View Post
    Have you played Big Shot yet? I swear the balls-through-the-flipper action was non-stop! They're supposed to have a fix for that issue coming soon though..

    But with Star Wars Pinball coming I probably won't be thinking about TPA much for a while anyway.
    no i am holding of on that pack for now so i can get STNG, Mars+Genie, and of course star was pinball . i have everything else on TPA tho TZ is really fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ER777 View Post
    Have you played Big Shot yet? I swear the balls-through-the-flipper action was non-stop! They're supposed to have a fix for that issue coming soon though..
    Big Shot seems to have it the worse, especially with the right flipper. It will go right through the tip and when I nudge it (try to save it), it will go right through the flipper completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenorhero View Post
    Yeah playing both back to back can be a wake up call. Timing of shots is different. Zen's flippers seem pretty powerful compared to PA.
    Since you're on the matter, what about nudging? I mean, assuming that you guys are using the left stick for that, are you comfortable with switching from one game to the other, where controls are reversed?

    I'm used to playing TPA and I'm having a hard time adapting to ZP2, I always end up nudging in the wrong direction. It just takes some time of course, but the idea alone of going back and forth between the two games gives me a headache...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gselfish View Post
    Since you're on the matter, what about nudging? I mean, assuming that you guys are using the left stick for that, are you comfortable with switching from one game to the other, where controls are reversed?

    I'm used to playing TPA and I'm having a hard time adapting to ZP2, I always end up nudging in the wrong direction. It just takes some time of course, but the idea alone of going back and forth between the two games gives me a headache...
    i used right stick for some time but Then TPA came out and yes it gave me a headache having switched controls was throwing me way off so i had to switch back to left stick for zen it took awhile to get used to again but i adapted eventually, i did ask them to give an option to let us use the right stick in TPA but i don't think they will add it at this point, just match to the two games as much as you can so you don't curse at your hands like i did

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    Senior Member ER777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gselfish View Post
    Since you're on the matter, what about nudging? I mean, assuming that you guys are using the left stick for that, are you comfortable with switching from one game to the other, where controls are reversed?

    I'm used to playing TPA and I'm having a hard time adapting to ZP2, I always end up nudging in the wrong direction. It just takes some time of course, but the idea alone of going back and forth between the two games gives me a headache...
    I actually use the D-Pad for nudging in Zen games and of course the left stick in TPA. I wish TPA had an option to use the D-Pad also. I tried using the left stick in Zen for a while just so they would be the same but I was never able to get used to it in Zen, the D-Pad is just much more comfortable and reliable for me. It actually works out ok though since I use nudging so much differently in the two games. My reflexes are tuned to the different inputs for the different situations I use nudging for between the two games.

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    Agreed, using the right stick is more intuitive for some reason but that's not a problem for me, TPA has already taught me to use the left one.
    The real problem for me is that if, say, you want to push the ball to the right, you have to press the stick left in TPA, and right in ZP2. None of the two games has an option for reversing the stick axis, so you cannot really have the same control in both.
    That's the main reason why I'm holding off zp2 for the moment....

  21. #21
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    Im struggling with Shatz'ing the in-lane. Anybody else having a difficult time with this?

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    Last edited by ROD; 03-02-2013 at 12:43 AM.

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    I haven't had any luck with this. More often than not you end up hitting the lower corner of the slingshot which rebounds SDTM. I'm glad this technique doesn't really work because most of the Zen tables rewards you with kickbacks for lighting the all the inlane and outlane rollovers. This would make the game too easy in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROD View Post
    Im struggling with Shatz'ing the in-lane. Anybody else having a difficult time with this?
    There's no reason in even trying that technique, just nudge or use the slingshot pass, they are less dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROD View Post
    Im struggling with Shatz'ing the in-lane. Anybody else having a difficult time with this?
    ya its hard as hell to do on demand, when it does happen its by accident when i make fast steep angle shots. i just do what snakeman07 suggests, less heart attacks.

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    “Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first base.” -Frederick Wilcox

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    Quote Originally Posted by snakeman07 View Post
    There's no reason in even trying that technique, just nudge or use the slingshot pass, they are less dangerous.
    Shatzing the inlane is not really meant for passing the ball. The technique is more for activating the rollovers. Slingshot and nudge passes usually don't roll up the inlanes high enough to reach the rollovers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surf1der View Post
    Shatzing the inlane is not really meant for passing the ball. The technique is more for activating the rollovers. Slingshot and nudge passes usually don't roll up the inlanes high enough to reach the rollovers.
    More trouble than it's worth then, in my opinion. Personally I've never tried the technique, but it happens on occasion on accident when the ball shoots down an inlane really fast.

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    Senior Member ER777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surf1der View Post
    I haven't had any luck with this. More often than not you end up hitting the lower corner of the slingshot which rebounds SDTM.
    I also never try that for the same reasons, too much risk for too little reward.

    It did seem to be easier to do in Zen1.. just in that it seemed to happen by accident more frequently, not that I tried for it.

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