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Thread: Why has Pinball FX3 become so bad supported?

  1. #1

    Exclamation Why has Pinball FX3 become so bad supported?

    For me, supporting Zen Pinball since the Beginning and the very first table pack included, I became a little bit angy & sad when I see the only 1 single table pack came from Zen Studios in over a year. This is Williams Vol. 6, before that it was Vol. 5 already released in December 2019.

    Never before there was such a delay in releasing new tables and even no information about new plans and releases!

    What's going wrong? Even patches are not coming or coming slowly and delayed - my point of view is coming from Europe and the PS4. And yet we have still no single information about next steps with new PS5 and XBox and what will be with the big supporting community with "old" consoles ect.

    Also: A lot of times I have problems with online servers from Zen in the last year - eg. High Scores, logging in ect.

    For me - Zen was a good and quick releasing company with good comunication to the buyers and fans of pinball.

    But -sadly- this has changed a lot in 2020 to this day!

  2. #2

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    Your answer lies in 'the year 2020'.
    It was a tough year.
    Let's forget it, and hope 2021 will be better for all of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overall_fanatic View Post
    For me - Zen was a good and quick releasing company with good comunication to the buyers and fans of pinball.

    But -sadly- this has changed a lot in 2020 to this day!
    I work for a games company (not this one). I can tell you from experience that even the biggest companies are facing huge challenges in keeping up with release schedules, support, maintenance, and keeping everyone paid and working, because of the pandemic. I'm willing to cut Zen quite a bit of slack for this whole last year - it's not easy to coordinate a team of engineers and finish projects while everyone's working from home.

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    Senior Member Casio's Avatar
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    As bad as 2020 was it takes a matter of five minutes from someone working in the team to give us some sort of confirmation as to what is going on.

    Alas they wish not too..

    In my opinion this forum has been lacking since the sacking/loss of barbiebobomb.

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    Just consider the possibility that some of the employees involved might be dealing with sick family members, or could even be sick themselves. Having seen that in my own workforce, it's definitely a possibility. Not that I have any proof or inside info, and I am not defending Zen outright. Just trying to see things from all angles.

  6. #6

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    This forum might be a little bit dead.
    The Zen guys are more active on Discord. That's maybe why a lot of people miss a lot of information.

  7. #7
    Administrator Linne_Zen's Avatar
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    You are right guys, we faced many difficulties in 2020, it was due to the global pandemic and the new challenges we faced when the whole company moved home office, but we will come back in 2021 with full swing! Don't worry, it will be a great year for pinball, and we will have plenty to announce!
    Community Manager
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  8. #8

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    Now, that is what I like to hear!!!!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by M!chel View Post
    This forum might be a little bit dead.
    But.... Just a little bit


    Quote Originally Posted by M!chel View Post
    Discord

    Never heard of it. Or friends of me either.

    For good communication with users (and customers!) my point of view is you have to use established and already used ways or at least otherwise tell users when you switch to other platforms.

    Yes - Home Office can slow down a lot of projects in buisness life - but specially software developers should have not so many problems with it like other companys?

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    Oh, trust me, it's a big challenge to do all your software work at home, 100 percent of the time. There are family distractions, the fact that most kids are stuck doing distance learning and need extra care. Sometimes you don't have a sufficient internet connection to handle sending and receiving large files. The distance learning stream takes up a lot of bandwidth and interferes with your ability to be online. Your spouse is stressed out with all the extra work they have to do with taking care of the kids at home full time, so you need to step in and help more than before. Etc.

    Plus, many devs are getting just plain burned out working at home. It's a real thing - you'd think working at home would be a lot easier and more relaxing than being in the office, but it's been shown many times that (a) you tend to just go straight from bed to work, and work longer hours, because of there being no commute. Sounds good at the start, but it leads to burnout if you don't keep it in check. And (b), often your home setup isn't as good as that at work, even just in the way you sit in your chair or have to turn your neck to look at your screen.

    All of these things will slow you down and hurt productivity. As I said earlier, I work for a games company myself, and I'm seeing this first-hand both for myself and many of my co-workers.

    There may be other reasons why Zen is taking such a long time with updates, but don't accuse them of just being lazy in the pandemic. Nobody likes what's going on right now, but act in good faith here.

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    Then again they could have a high percentage of personal working on the next gen platform.....Pinball FX

  12. #12

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    Yes, that's right. Questions about further support for FX3 and "old" consoles unanswered in the past - and now they are talking about "Pinball Royal" reboot for new consoles.....?! I think this is more the fact than any discussion about the pandemic. The truth seems to be that they want a total new game ... and have still worked on this project.

    OK, we will see if this is the right way for Zen.... not so many new hardware sold (and even available).... and this new game & tables has to be fully paid from the beginning...

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    Senior Member Boulderdash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overall_fanatic View Post
    .... I became a little bit angy & sad when I see the only 1 single table pack came from Zen Studios in over a year. This is Williams Vol. 6, before that it was Vol. 5 already released in December 2019.
    Let me get this... You get angry because other people (a team of developers) do not provide you with fresh entertainment?
    That is what makes you angry? And what exactly is your contribution?

  14. #14

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    You can read? Then take a look to post 1. You'l find the answer. I'm sure! Definitely maybe. Otherwise you may tell us your contribution? But exactly, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderdash View Post
    Let me get this... You get angry because other people (a team of developers) do not provide you with fresh entertainment?
    That is what makes you angry? And what exactly is your contribution?
    Speaking for myself, the main issue isn't so much the lack of new entertainment. It's the lack of engagement. Lack of communication of any sort. It's the fact that we, as paying customers, have almost no way to let the team know about game-breaking bugs and issues that severely diminish the quality and value of this product we paid for. It's the fact that Zen is still actively selling content in all the digital stores the game is available on without giving us adequate support for it. They haven't even said they don't plan to continue supporting it.

    And from the looks of things, they also take absolutely minimal effort to monitor or moderate their own forum, nor moderate their subreddit (I saw how one of their outspoken users was a real asshole to another person, and Zen did nothing about it).

    This is what makes me upset. I agree with the person who said he felt abandoned. And I'm not inclined to support Zen at this point. As I said in another thread, there's only so much benefit of the doubt I can give before it becomes ridiculous. My comment above about giving them a break kinda doesn't apply anymore.

  16. #16
    Administrator Linne_Zen's Avatar
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    We are sorry to hear that. Recently, we made fixes for Xbox, PS4, Win10, and Switch, and we plan to continue this effort. On Reddit, there were many occasions when we warned people for inappropriate behavior (or our moderators did it), but there might be some cases, that went unnoticed. Please let me know if you saw anything like this.

    We are constantly working on new projects, Star Wars Pinball VR will launch next week, and Pinball FX is also planned for 2021 with many new contents and updated physics for all tables. I hope you will like it.
    Community Manager
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    With all due respect, Linne, why do we only hear from you once a month? And why did it take FOUR months to get a set of really minor bug fixes out onto consoles (e.g. bumpers in Medieval Madness) when they'd already been out on PC that whole time? I know it doesn't take anywhere near that long.

    Let alone the fact that there are still several game-breaking bugs that to my knowledge haven't even been acknowledged - the worst one being the Mix Master turntable in Dr. Dude, which makes that game basically unplayable when it stops working.

    It's understandable if the bug that causes that is so hard to find or fix that it's taking a while, or even that you might consider it not worth fixing. Just TELL us what's going on.

    The fact that we only hear from you once a month and it's nearly always some form of "We'll look at that", "We're working on new stuff", or something else that is generally boilerplate, is what's driving your fans away.

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    I haven't booted PinballFX3 anymore for a few months either. It's a shame how Farsight & ZEN have been able to kill all fun of playing Pinball on consoles.
    I've bought all ZEN & Farsight tables twice. First on my WiiU, and again on my PS4. And I sure as hell ain't gonna pay for them again. I didn't buy the last two Williams packs anymore either. I refuse to pay money to a company that discrespects pinball and disrespects its users in such a blatant manner.
    I've ended up with a censored game with various bugs and a non-communicative company that seems to think that all is fine since they already have my money,

    On the forums you also only get a "We will look into that!" kind of replays, followed by months of silence. And as soon as the questions are a bit harder, ZEN will give an ear-deffening silence. Or at best a "Oops we're sorry and we will look into that", followed by a big nothing.

    Not that ZEN will care, but I haven't spent a dime on their last products and won't spend any in the future either. I'll happily spend my money on a company that does care about its userbase.
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  19. #19
    Administrator Linne_Zen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KieferSkunk View Post
    With all due respect, Linne, why do we only hear from you once a month? And why did it take FOUR months to get a set of really minor bug fixes out onto consoles (e.g. bumpers in Medieval Madness) when they'd already been out on PC that whole time? I know it doesn't take anywhere near that long.

    Let alone the fact that there are still several game-breaking bugs that to my knowledge haven't even been acknowledged - the worst one being the Mix Master turntable in Dr. Dude, which makes that game basically unplayable when it stops working.

    It's understandable if the bug that causes that is so hard to find or fix that it's taking a while, or even that you might consider it not worth fixing. Just TELL us what's going on.

    The fact that we only hear from you once a month and it's nearly always some form of "We'll look at that", "We're working on new stuff", or something else that is generally boilerplate, is what's driving your fans away.
    Fixes for different platforms require different types of resources and time. Still being a relatively small company, the management of these resources are critical for us, but as I always tell you, I forward all the bugs to the developers.

    We plan to continue the support of Pinball FX3 with fixes, along with many of our games.

    The bug on the Dr. Dude table is really hard to reproduce, we will see what we will be able to do with it.
    Community Manager
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    As I've said before, I realize you're a small company, but I don't accept that (a) that's an excuse to go whole months without talking to your customers, or (b) that it means you can't compile and submit code fixes to common console publishers in a timely manner.

    Okay, some bugs are hard to reproduce. We get that. If you had just come out and said that, I'm sure more of us would have been more understanding about it. But some were clearly solved on one platform, but then took months to release on other platforms even though they were almost certainly very simple fixes. And in all that time, we heard next to nothing from the company.

    I also think it speaks poorly of you when you have abusive users on your Reddit forum actively driving other people off, as I saw happen to one person there, and your moderators do nothing about it. I had considered signing up for Reddit so I could participate in the conversation, but after seeing that happen, I decided I had better ways to spend my time.

    Unfortunately, this kind of thing is all too common with companies that were once great and have since faded into mediocrity.

    You can do better than that.

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    I will also add that I realize being in customer service is a difficult job. I've done it, and I know it can be awfully demoralizing to have to deal with people who only complain. I can't speak for everyone here, of course, but at least for myself, this is (I hope) constructive criticism. I like your product, and I want to keep supporting it. But it's hard to get enthused about it or the next big thing when there's basically nothing to go on.

    As a small company, you're in a better position than a big one to show your obviously passionate fans that you really care about them. But what I'm seeing, and evidently what others see as well, is that you've all but fallen off the radar, and that gives a negative impression about either your company's stability or about how much you actually care about your customers.

    I'm sure you do care at least somewhat. Show us. We're not asking for perfection. We're just asking for a little more engagement, and a little more honesty.

  22. #22
    Administrator Linne_Zen's Avatar
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    Thanks for your detailed feedback! For more information, you can also join our Discord channel and follow our social media platforms, as we share everything there. (Sales, bugfixes and other pinball-related stuff) You can join our Discord server here: https://discord.gg/rRRBB7x8zS
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    That is exactly the kind of boilerplate reply that tells your customers you couldn't be bothered to actually read or care about what they said.

    Good bye. You've lost me permanently.

  24. #24
    Administrator Linne_Zen's Avatar
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    I am sorry to hear that. I just tried to direct you to a platform, where you can contact us in a more direct way, like on Discord. I have read all your comments. Regarding the Reddit situation, we are following the subreddit rules, and although there is a possibility that you can't see the results of each inappropriate behaviour, we give out warnings privately too. We are continuously tracking the bugs on multiple platforms, and as Mel mentioned, we are planning a big patch where we can sort many out, however currently, I don't have any information when this could happen. I hope, I was able to address most of your questions.
    Community Manager
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    Well, given what I've seen on Reddit in general, and your Subreddit in particular, I'm not inclined to sign up there just so I can interact. Not really keen on getting run off the discussion by someone who thinks he owns the place. And my experience with Discord communities is that they almost always end up just being a bunch of fans talking about unrelated things all the time. Perhaps yours is different.

    But if those are your preferred channels for customer contact, perhaps you might consider just shutting this forum down and redirecting the link to your Discord and Subreddit, so that people don't waste their time here?

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linne_Zen View Post
    I am sorry to hear that. I just tried to direct you to a platform, where you can contact us in a more direct way...
    I started FX3 on the PS4 after a long time. Nothing, really nothing happend. No patches, no updates. You have a good platform here ... and there was a few questions above asked here. Why directing to another platform??? Why not answering here?

    The fact is : In the past the support was good, in some parts great - for your small company. Now we only find this kind of
    the kind of boilerplate reply
    like "we'll fix it soon, we soon bring you this, we are working on it, we will discuss that in our next meeting...." blablabla....

    Fact is - nothing happend for a really long time! And what's more frustrating - the information you gave in the last ~15 month.

    In the end we look at the things you offer - and that is not very much in this time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linne_Zen View Post
    I just tried to direct you to a platform, where you can contact us in a more direct way, like on Discord.
    The thing is, the most direct way we could contact you would be via an email address or a Contact Us form on your website. I couldn't find one. The next step is usually the company's own dedicated forum. Sadly, many companies have forums but don't monitor or maintain them anymore, and in Zen's case, the responses are few and far between, without much explanation. Reddit is becoming a de facto secondary forum for companies, but in many ways that can be worse than a company-specific, self-hosted forum, especially given how much "cadre-ism" there is there. And I don't really trust Discord as a means of contact.

    Again, "We are a small company" explains lack of staff, but if that lack of staff means lack of timely support, you really should consider making a more blanket announcement about this rather than just giving us the impression that you only check the forum once a week/month.

    I appreciate that you've read our comments. I hope they will lead to a better experience for both you and for your customers. Trust me, at least for my part, we're not here to just complain about how terrible things are. We think this is a great game and a good platform. The fact that you have people like us being persistent about staying in contact speaks volumes about how passionate and enthusiastic your customers and fans are about the work you do. As such, we want to be a part of improving it.

    The thing that upsets me is when we have to jump through a lot of hoops just to find a way to contact you at all, and then we have to wait a very long time to get any sort of response that at least hints that you might address what we've said. Personally, I'd be happy with a response saying "We are heads down on our new platform and won't be able to investigate or fix these bugs right away", but for the most part I don't recall seeing that. Such a comment, while not necessarily what a lot of us want to hear (everyone of course wants "We'll fix that right away" or "Here's a new patch"), it at least lets us know that you're actually listening and considering our messages. Boiler-plate replies such as "Thanks for the detailed feedback! Contact us somewhere else!" and "We'll look at that in the next meeting" can easily just be copy-pasted without actually saying anything useful, and it often makes us feel ignored and put off.

    Like I said, if the issue is that you're short-staffed and you don't have the time or resources to get to the things we're asking for support on, just say so. Be honest. I realize it'll put some people off, but many of us will understand the situation better and, at least for me, be more willing to cut you some slack for it - especially if it inspires some belief that the new platform you're working on will either not have these bugs and glitches, or at least that they'll be easier for you to address. (No game is ever perfect.)

    Thanks for listening. I really do hope you'll take this to heart. I do urge you to consider becoming more engaged with this forum again, or closing it and auto-redirecting people to your preferred channels of communication so at least it's clear where we can interact with you better. Up to you, of course, but perhaps doing that will reduce your support burden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderdash View Post
    Let me get this... You get angry because other people (a team of developers) do not provide you with fresh entertainment?
    That is what makes you angry? And what exactly is your contribution?
    Money, simple. SMH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linne_Zen View Post
    Thanks for your detailed feedback! For more information, you can also join our Discord channel and follow our social media platforms, as we share everything there. (Sales, bugfixes and other pinball-related stuff) You can join our Discord server here: https://discord.gg/rRRBB7x8zS
    Discord and social media is a nightmare as it's just a snipet in time and then poof it's gone down the chain. In an online forum you have an easily searchable archive of questions, responses, announcements, etc. I for one don't understand the allure of Discord. I have it for my other hobbies and it's a huge pain in the ass with all the real time spamming and the way topics get lost. Don't have any idea how that took over from online forums from official sites. SMH

    Us old timers will continue to use this forum and be out of the loop I guess.

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    Default Ding ding ding we have a winner!

    Quote Originally Posted by KieferSkunk View Post
    The thing is, the most direct way we could contact you would be via an email address or a Contact Us form on your website. I couldn't find one. The next step is usually the company's own dedicated forum. Sadly, many companies have forums but don't monitor or maintain them anymore, and in Zen's case, the responses are few and far between, without much explanation. Reddit is becoming a de facto secondary forum for companies, but in many ways that can be worse than a company-specific, self-hosted forum, especially given how much "cadre-ism" there is there. And I don't really trust Discord as a means of contact.

    Again, "We are a small company" explains lack of staff, but if that lack of staff means lack of timely support, you really should consider making a more blanket announcement about this rather than just giving us the impression that you only check the forum once a week/month.

    I appreciate that you've read our comments. I hope they will lead to a better experience for both you and for your customers. Trust me, at least for my part, we're not here to just complain about how terrible things are. We think this is a great game and a good platform. The fact that you have people like us being persistent about staying in contact speaks volumes about how passionate and enthusiastic your customers and fans are about the work you do. As such, we want to be a part of improving it.

    The thing that upsets me is when we have to jump through a lot of hoops just to find a way to contact you at all, and then we have to wait a very long time to get any sort of response that at least hints that you might address what we've said. Personally, I'd be happy with a response saying "We are heads down on our new platform and won't be able to investigate or fix these bugs right away", but for the most part I don't recall seeing that. Such a comment, while not necessarily what a lot of us want to hear (everyone of course wants "We'll fix that right away" or "Here's a new patch"), it at least lets us know that you're actually listening and considering our messages. Boiler-plate replies such as "Thanks for the detailed feedback! Contact us somewhere else!" and "We'll look at that in the next meeting" can easily just be copy-pasted without actually saying anything useful, and it often makes us feel ignored and put off.

    Like I said, if the issue is that you're short-staffed and you don't have the time or resources to get to the things we're asking for support on, just say so. Be honest. I realize it'll put some people off, but many of us will understand the situation better and, at least for me, be more willing to cut you some slack for it - especially if it inspires some belief that the new platform you're working on will either not have these bugs and glitches, or at least that they'll be easier for you to address. (No game is ever perfect.)

    Thanks for listening. I really do hope you'll take this to heart. I do urge you to consider becoming more engaged with this forum again, or closing it and auto-redirecting people to your preferred channels of communication so at least it's clear where we can interact with you better. Up to you, of course, but perhaps doing that will reduce your support burden.
    Spot on!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KieferSkunk View Post
    The thing is, the most direct way we could contact you would be via an email address or a Contact Us form on your website. I couldn't find one. The next step is usually the company's own dedicated forum. Sadly, many companies have forums but don't monitor or maintain them anymore, and in Zen's case, the responses are few and far between, without much explanation. Reddit is becoming a de facto secondary forum for companies, but in many ways that can be worse than a company-specific, self-hosted forum, especially given how much "cadre-ism" there is there. And I don't really trust Discord as a means of contact.

    Again, "We are a small company" explains lack of staff, but if that lack of staff means lack of timely support, you really should consider making a more blanket announcement about this rather than just giving us the impression that you only check the forum once a week/month.

    I appreciate that you've read our comments. I hope they will lead to a better experience for both you and for your customers. Trust me, at least for my part, we're not here to just complain about how terrible things are. We think this is a great game and a good platform. The fact that you have people like us being persistent about staying in contact speaks volumes about how passionate and enthusiastic your customers and fans are about the work you do. As such, we want to be a part of improving it.

    The thing that upsets me is when we have to jump through a lot of hoops just to find a way to contact you at all, and then we have to wait a very long time to get any sort of response that at least hints that you might address what we've said. Personally, I'd be happy with a response saying "We are heads down on our new platform and won't be able to investigate or fix these bugs right away", but for the most part I don't recall seeing that. Such a comment, while not necessarily what a lot of us want to hear (everyone of course wants "We'll fix that right away" or "Here's a new patch"), it at least lets us know that you're actually listening and considering our messages. Boiler-plate replies such as "Thanks for the detailed feedback! Contact us somewhere else!" and "We'll look at that in the next meeting" can easily just be copy-pasted without actually saying anything useful, and it often makes us feel ignored and put off.

    Like I said, if the issue is that you're short-staffed and you don't have the time or resources to get to the things we're asking for support on, just say so. Be honest. I realize it'll put some people off, but many of us will understand the situation better and, at least for me, be more willing to cut you some slack for it - especially if it inspires some belief that the new platform you're working on will either not have these bugs and glitches, or at least that they'll be easier for you to address. (No game is ever perfect.)

    Thanks for listening. I really do hope you'll take this to heart. I do urge you to consider becoming more engaged with this forum again, or closing it and auto-redirecting people to your preferred channels of communication so at least it's clear where we can interact with you better. Up to you, of course, but perhaps doing that will reduce your support burden.
    Unfortunately, I don't have this information right now, but as I mentioned, a patch with bugfixes is still scheduled for Pinball FX3 in the future. I will try to find out more about it, and will inform you once I get to know something about it. You are right that I have been a little inactive lately on this platform, I am sorry about that, and will try to improve from now on.
    Community Manager
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    Appreciate that. Thanks.

    And I apologize for my "You've lost me" comment earlier in this thread. I'll probably wait to get the new platform when it's no longer an Epic exclusive, but I'll keep an eye out for updates.

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    Also just want to be clear that when I (and I imagine most of us) say "you", I mean Zen Studios as a whole, and not you personally, Linne. Just in case you are feeling personally attacked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KieferSkunk View Post
    Also just want to be clear that when I (and I imagine most of us) say "you", I mean Zen Studios as a whole, and not you personally, Linne. Just in case you are feeling personally attacked.
    That is totally not the case. I am always happy if someone gives constructive criticism the way you did, it also helps me to improve.
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    Default Additional FX3 Bugs of Note That Never got Fixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Linne_Zen View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't have this information right now, but as I mentioned, a patch with bugfixes is still scheduled for Pinball FX3 in the future. I will try to find out more about it, and will inform you once I get to know something about it. You are right that I have been a little inactive lately on this platform, I am sorry about that, and will try to improve from now on.
    Long standing bugs on my XBOX 1X include:

    -Multipliers not working on Adventureland. Same for its challenges.
    -Multiball keeps going on Avengers even when ball is lost. No nudging helps and you lose your game. Same for Avengers challenges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flapsmojo57 View Post
    Long standing bugs on my XBOX 1X include:

    -Multipliers not working on Adventureland. Same for its challenges.
    -Multiball keeps going on Avengers even when ball is lost. No nudging helps and you lose your game. Same for Avengers challenges.
    Thank you very much for your report, I forwarded it to the dev team.
    Community Manager
    Zen Studios

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