Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: General physics question.

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    156

    Default General physics question.

    Why does it seem that not all flipper swings are equal strength?

    It's most obvious when trying a backhand up a ramp, like say spiderman or MARS. Sometimes i'll get a really strong hit, and it will go cleanly up, sometimes it won't even reach the ramp, and other times it will go up and back down.

    I'm aware of a real pinball physics quirk that affects this, but how is it implemented in this game?

    It has to do with end of stroke switches, and the fact that they tend to wobble a bit after the flipper lowers, causing the strength to change.

    Is the EOS switch simulated, or is one of about three strengths or so picked randomly with every flip?

    You may see people who like to hold the flipper up after making a shot until a half second before the ball returns to it. this is an attempt to affect this.

    Also anyone talking about the "magnetic properties of light" where they can't seem to shoot a shot after it lights up, this is the very effect that's happening.

    Also in real life this is affected by how freshly waxed the table is. If it's newly waxed, you will aim for a shot and hit the post. if it's broken in somewhat you will aim at a shot and actually hit the one next to it. And if the field is really dirty flipper strength seems all over the place.

    An "easy shot" is one where the medium strength flip goes up dead center, and it's wid enough for the other two flips to go up it as well from that sweet spot.

    How does it actually work?

    This fact makes Bushman mode in Moon Knight an exercise in frustration, when you aim at one shot and it hits the one right next to it and hurts your progress. The right side isn't quite so bad, but the left one a shot to either side hurts you. There's a reason almost no real pinball game has modes where you are supposed to NOT shoot something.
    Last edited by zaphod77; 07-31-2013 at 10:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    156

    Default

    no one can answer, huh? i'm really curious..

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphod77 View Post
    no one can answer, huh? i'm really curious..
    I don't think I can answer because I'm not even sure what you are talking about. Are talking about hitting from a trapped ball? If not, the speed of the ball coming down will determine how fast the ball bounces back. As far as I can tell, the flippers always hit with the exact same strength.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    156

    Default

    try to backhand the ramp on spiderman, and you will see.

    Sometimes it will go screaming up the ramp at top speed, this is a strong hit.

    Sometimes it will barely make t up. this is a normal hit.
    Sometimes it will hardly make it at all,a dn be really slow. this is a weak hit.

    Weak shots tend to go around orbits before the ball crosses the halfway point on the flipper.

  5. #5

    Default

    On modern pinball games (1990 and newer) end of stroke switches have nothing to do with this. They are no longer used to cut flipper high power. I think its more an effect of ball trajectory and angle. Pinball fx2 seems pretty accurate with my real machines in this regard. My guess is that this is handled by the physics engine and the concept of eos switches does not exist in the software.

  6. #6
    Senior Member LeanderL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    292

    Default

    The physics are different table-wise as the tables are different, too. You shouldn't lose money as on old real tables but progress in the story, missions etc.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by markmon View Post
    On modern pinball games (1990 and newer) end of stroke switches have nothing to do with this. They are no longer used to cut flipper high power. I think its more an effect of ball trajectory and angle. Pinball fx2 seems pretty accurate with my real machines in this regard. My guess is that this is handled by the physics engine and the concept of eos switches does not exist in the software.
    I'm talking from a trap. Trajectory and everything exactly the same. you will find there two or three possible sweet spots for most shots. I repeat. try and backhand a ramp on a table from a trap. You will sometimes find the ball just wont' make it, even though you are SURE you got the shot right. it wont' have enough oomph. Other times it will go screaming up nearly as fast as a direct shot.

    ALL bally/williams games up to cactus canyon use end of stroke switches. All Gottlieb Premiere games use them too. I'm not sure how modern stern flippers work, but they don't feel right to me.

    While a modern EOS switch doesn't cut the power physically it still signals to the driver board to switch to the hold coil, and thus the effect remains.

    I'm well aware of initial ball speed effects. this is NOT that.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphod77 View Post
    I'm talking from a trap. Trajectory and everything exactly the same. you will find there two or three possible sweet spots for most shots. I repeat. try and backhand a ramp on a table from a trap. You will sometimes find the ball just wont' make it, even though you are SURE you got the shot right. it wont' have enough oomph. Other times it will go screaming up nearly as fast as a direct shot.

    ALL bally/williams games up to cactus canyon use end of stroke switches. All Gottlieb Premiere games use them too. I'm not sure how modern stern flippers work, but they don't feel right to me.

    While a modern EOS switch doesn't cut the power physically it still signals to the driver board to switch to the hold coil, and thus the effect remains.

    I'm well aware of initial ball speed effects. this is NOT that.
    Why would a video pinball need to simulate eos switches? I believe they are meant to prevent the quick burning out of the flipper coils. Obviously a video pinball game has no coils that they need to worry about replacing so why would they need to simulate an eos switch?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Roo5676's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    160

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphod77 View Post
    I'm talking from a trap. Trajectory and everything exactly the same. you will find there two or three possible sweet spots for most shots. I repeat. try and backhand a ramp on a table from a trap. You will sometimes find the ball just wont' make it, even though you are SURE you got the shot right.
    Regardless of any differences between real life and the game physics, I don't think this can possibly be a true test if you are just playing the game by hand. Any variation in the time between letting the ball begin to fall from the trap and re-engaging the flipper has the potential for a different result. Maybe if you were controlling the game by computer and could guarantee you were waiting exactly 1500 ms or whatever every time... but I would guess that if you did you'd find out there's nothing random about it.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    156

    Default

    If that's indeed the case, then the feature i'm talking about is implemented properly.

    What i'm saying is the slightest difference causes a HUGE difference in trajectory anywhere on the flipper, and sometimes a flip from further down will go at a sharper angle than one from earlier up. the only explanatino i can think of is that not all flips are equal in strength.

    Give me a game like back to the future, which uses no EOS switch (those solid state flippers from Data East), and i can loop that left ramp until the cows come home in real life.

    ALso compare ghost rider on xbox360 (EVERY autoplunge always hits top hole) and windows (sometimes autoplunge bobbles on the second hole). And compare wolverine (SNIKT saucer ALWAYS feeds the inlane on other versions, but only does so half the time maybe on pc) there is SOME pc version only randomness going on.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphod77 View Post
    I'm talking from a trap. Trajectory and everything exactly the same. you will find there two or three possible sweet spots for most shots. I repeat. try and backhand a ramp on a table from a trap. You will sometimes find the ball just wont' make it, even though you are SURE you got the shot right. it wont' have enough oomph. Other times it will go screaming up nearly as fast as a direct shot.

    ALL bally/williams games up to cactus canyon use end of stroke switches. All Gottlieb Premiere games use them too. I'm not sure how modern stern flippers work, but they don't feel right to me.

    While a modern EOS switch doesn't cut the power physically it still signals to the driver board to switch to the hold coil, and thus the effect remains.

    I'm well aware of initial ball speed effects. this is NOT that.
    I never said bally williams games don't use end of stroke switches. I said they are not used to cut high power. This statement here:
    Quote Originally Posted by zaphod77 View Post
    While a modern EOS switch doesn't cut the power physically it still signals to the driver board to switch to the hold coil, and thus the effect remains.
    Is wrong. Bally/Williams, Data East/Sega/Stern all pulse the coil and engage the hold power. End of stroke is only used to repulse the high power in case of holding up a flipper and while it's up a fast ball slams into it - in this case, the CPU will see the flipper drop and repulse the coil to raise the flipper all the way up. It is not used for nor does it have anything to do with cutting high power any longer.

    Therefore, trying to emulate that behavior in software will not help and this is not a good suggestion. It depends on the angle, but if the ramp is backhandable, it seems it is backhandable. I haven't found pinball fx to be lacking in this category. Not every ramp can be backhanded. Stern flippers have a higher end of stroke angle than B/W flippers. That makes backhanding a bit easier. Zen tables also have a higher end stroke. It feels fine to me the way it is.

    If I were going to complain about any physics, it would be the lack of power on the slingshots. Perhaps a setting in the menu to enable normal power slingshots - pinball fx1 had this right. I suspect Zen toned these down to increase ball times. But it really isn't very realistic.
    Last edited by markmon; 09-14-2013 at 11:25 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •