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Thread: Real tables recreations pls!

  1. #1
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    Default Real tables recreations pls!

    good day,
    i play FX on steam (core and classic packs) and i can say with certainty: it is a very quality product. only one thing i dont like is ball's trail and sparks - too odd - we must take option to switch them off.
    i love way you make Originals (in most cases) - they have realy hard to do wizard modes and other things to do.
    but thing i want to ask you: pls start to make Real Life Table Recreations!! yeah there is TPA already on the market, but i saw many of its gameplay video, tried android version..it simply disaster:so many of arts mistakes (in comparison with real table), low res textures, often they are not wrapped properly on poor modeled table toys and other elemets.
    may be you could emulate real tables better.
    Last edited by vpalmer; 09-16-2013 at 10:09 AM.

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    Senior Member Rafie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpalmer View Post
    good day,
    i play FX on steam (core and classic packs) and i can say with certainty: it is a very quality product. only one thing i dont like is ball's trail and sparks - too odd - we must take option to switch them off.
    i love way you make Originals (in most cases) - they have realy hard to do wizard modes and other things to do.
    but thing i want to ask you: pls start to make Real Life Table Recreations!! yeah there is TPA already on the market, but i saw many of its gameplay video, tried android version..it simply disaster:so many of arts mistakes (in comparison with real table), low res textures, often they are not wrapped properly on poor modeled table toys and other elemets.
    may be you could emulate real tables better.
    Welcome to the forums here at Zen!

    Here's the thing with what I highlighted in bold. As you are aware, FarSight has the licenses to the major manufacturer's of the "real tables" like Bally, Gottlieb, Williams, Stern, etc. So Zen really can't touch any of those said tables. Even if they make their own version of it...that would be lawsuit territory. Besides, Zen never recreate tables. All of their tables are brand new and built from the ground up. Both pinball companies are fantastic. I couldn't imagine Zen making their version of those actual tables. That would rock. Unfortunately that will never happen...license wise and Zen's stance on not recreating any table.
    PSN ID- RayCrocheron82
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    Rafie, i know about licenses, and Zen could buy rights for recreating Gottlieb, Williams, Bally, Stern tables as they did with rights for Star Wars and Marvel. if making original tables is profitable, so real table recreation will be too because here is huge pinball fan base for it.
    and TPA is not fantastic..it is DISASTER - if you spend some time and compare their "recreations" as Genie or Monster Bash - you'll see HUGE difference. it struggles from bugs and art issues, and much of players with it. of course here are some people who not invloved enough and dont see problems, but this not means what problems disappear because of that.

    btw my nickname in FX is kaworu - you can see my scores on classic and core tables to be sure what i have some passion to pinball.
    Last edited by vpalmer; 09-16-2013 at 10:55 AM.

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    FarSight has exclusive licenses, meaning that no other company can negotiate for those licenses. Otherwise, we'd probably make a few - it's a lot faster and easier than designing and building new ones and therefore would make sense from a business standpoint, though of course it feels better to succeed on our own ability and create original work rather than simply reproducing another designer's work. Plus, it would be a nice excuse to add some more tables to the office...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
    FarSight has exclusive licenses
    Damn! there must be some way to save from this nightmare..may be right holders can withdraw licenses becuase of their poor job?
    because someone must intervene and change this catastrophic situation..
    ..why good licenses always fall in wrong hands?
    Last edited by vpalmer; 09-16-2013 at 12:49 PM.

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    Senior Member Rafie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpalmer View Post
    Damn! there must be some way to save from this nightmare..may be right holders can withdraw licenses becuase of their poor job?
    because someone must intervene and change this catastrophic situation..
    ..why good licenses always fall in wrong hands?
    That's what I was saying in my post. FarSight alone as these licenses and Zen simply can't recreate the tables. I should have used the word "exclusive" in my post. I don't think FarSight is bad at all. I like their renditions of the tables. I'm just more of a Zen guy myself. Believe it or not, there are a lot of folks who don't like Zen's tables (don't know why?!) and prefers FarSights because it closely resembles the real thing. Everyone has a preference I suppose!
    PSN ID- RayCrocheron82
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpalmer View Post
    Damn! there must be some way to save from this nightmare..may be right holders can withdraw licenses because of their poor job?
    because someone must intervene and change this catastrophic situation..
    ..why good licenses always fall in wrong hands?
    Considering that Stern, Williams/Bally and Gottlieb are pretty pleased with FarSight's work. I really doubt they are really going to withdraw their contracts with them.

    Just an FYI, quality is in the eyes of the beholder. You may think their game is a "catastrophe", but that doesn't mean others agree with you. I personally like both games. There are things that Zen has gotten right and there are things that Farsight has done right. Neither or game is perfect and I personally prefer Zen's platform over Farsight's, but that's mainly because Zen makes original tables.

    There are some people that love The Pinball Arcade and can't stand Zen Pinball and vise versa.

  8. #8

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    I don't find this desirable at all. As soon as you are trying to emulate real tables, then you find your physics engine will not suffice. The physics are great in a platform where the tables are fresh. But in one where real life comparisons are made, it would require a ton of tweaking. Plus there are already a lot of others doing emulations of real tables. I like the fresh designs here and the tables that couldn't be done in real life. Please keep the focus on those

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    On the whole I love Zen's original designs and rule sets. There are a few of Zen's tables that can be done as a real table but most of them can't. For me the worst Part about Zen's tables is the heavy ball Physics. It's a bit to easy to trap the ball. Flippers are pretty powerful. To that end, Games last far too long especially those that are stronger players and get the basics of technique.

    Farsight's biggest plus they have is them emulating real tables. Tables that I grew up with in the 80's and 90's. Sure TPA has tons of issues with bugs and glitches. Even their Physics aren't the best. If you've been playing real tables lately, It's not even close IMO.

    Zen's tables are pretty polished. Of course there could be glitches and bugs as well but not to the extreme of TPA.


    Fact is I love pinball and I play both equally. If I feel like shorter games I'd play TPA for longer interesting tables Zen/Marvel/Star Wars. It's tough to play both one after the other as both the flipper and balls physics are way different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenorhero View Post
    On the whole I love Zen's original designs and rule sets. There are a few of Zen's tables that can be done as a real table but most of them can't. For me the worst Part about Zen's tables is the heavy ball Physics. It's a bit to easy to trap the ball. Flippers are pretty powerful. To that end, Games last far too long especially those that are stronger players and get the basics of technique.
    These aren't issues of physics calculations, really, but of the physical properties of table components. The flippers are on the strong side, the flipper rubber is on the dead side, slingshots are on the weak side, flippers closer together compared to most real-life tables. Maybe a semantic difference but one that would be relevant if we did reproductions, as we can easily tune those components to be in line with their real-world counterparts. A flawed/unrealistic physics engine, on the other hand, is a much more difficult fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
    A flawed/unrealistic physics engine, on the other hand, is a much more difficult fix.
    as i can see in TPA ball dont spins - it looks like it simply "slides" on the field..at least maybe FS's license exclusivity is not "lifetime" - still hope to see someday your versions of great real tables like Bad Cats or Jack*Bot and others )) little "rivalry" will be only for bests and will lift up quality standards. after all FS alredy mentioned their plans to do something with originals in nearest future.
    Last edited by vpalmer; 09-17-2013 at 03:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
    These aren't issues of physics calculations, really, but of the physical properties of table components. The flippers are on the strong side, the flipper rubber is on the dead side, slingshots are on the weak side, flippers closer together compared to most real-life tables. Maybe a semantic difference but one that would be relevant if we did reproductions, as we can easily tune those components to be in line with their real-world counterparts. A flawed/unrealistic physics engine, on the other hand, is a much more difficult fix.

    Interesting remark about 'Easily tune those components.' Are you saying that your tables physics are indeed flawed/unrealistic? I like the fact that the ball has weight but, it has too much weight and need more bounce. I think it would be interesting to see how that would play out if you were able to get those aspects of real-life counterparts and get those that don't like Zen as much to come and play your game. Most of the complaints I see from those avid TPA is

    -the flipper are too close together.
    -Nudging doesn't alter the ball path like TPA
    -Balls have too much weight and too easy to trap
    -not bouncy enough
    -slings don't have enough power. What was challenging about real life tables is that the slings were so active, the ball can frequently careen to the outlanes and drain.


    I love both games I play them whenever I boot up my PS3. They can co-exist easily together.

    I know you're not going to change you philosophy of making your game/tables more casual friendly and and arcade feel. I would just like more of a real-life table feel to Zen's games with the above focus taking into consideration. It would make them more challenging.

  13. #13
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    No, Neil is saying that while the physics are realistic, the actual table elements are set up a little differently in order to be more forgiving. This allows each ball to last longer on average, which they take advantage of with more in-depth missions/modes. It also prevents undue frustration, especially for more casual players - I remember at some point they specifically mentioned wanting to avoid having the slingshots dump the ball into the outlane.

    The amount of bounce is related to the rubbers being a little dead - but again that's a design decision. I don't belive it's the same on all their tables, either.

    One thing Neil didn't mention is the flipper angle when engaged is pretty high, which makes traps easier.

    You know the table elements (flipper gap, flipper angle, slingshot stength, etc) is not the same on every real life table, either. And unlike those real tables, Zen doesn't have to keep the games short on purpose so you keep pumping in quarters.

    It always surprises me how many people post about how "unrealistic" it is because it doesn't play exactly like some of the real life tables they've played. That's kind of like saying a racing sim is unrealistic if you drive on a fantasy track that doesn't exist in real life. Personally I'm glad they're doing something different rather than just copying Bally or whoever. To me PBFX is the perfect marriage of real pinball mechanics with fantasy elements only possible in a video game.

    The challenge you're looking for lies less in avoiding house balls and more in completing all the missions and wizard modes. I've played a lot and have some pretty good scores including a #3 overall, and I've only completed the wizard mode in about 7 of the 30+ tables.
    Last edited by Roo5676; 09-17-2013 at 06:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenorhero View Post
    -the flipper are too close together.
    -Nudging doesn't alter the ball path like TPA
    -Balls have too much weight and too easy to trap
    -not bouncy enough
    -slings don't have enough power. What was challenging about real life tables is that the slings were so active, the ball can frequently careen to the outlanes and drain.
    -It's harder to make longer combos due to the weight.

    The TPA engine has actually a spin on the ball. If the ball sneaks up the inlane it will turn to the outlane and drain. This happens almost always in TPA compared to a real table where this frequently(!) happens.

    For me the rulesheets and playfields on the zen pinball tables are way too difficult, though. I never finished an experiment in 50 games of Tesla. Neither did I get an extra ball. I think I had the 3-ball multiball once. In Excalibur I cannot put the ball in the quest hole. It goes there just by accident. There are way too many timers (often double timers). Eg. TOTAN (a good and challenging real table) has no real timer. Even a drain doesn't finish the tales.

    The DMD info could be better. Status Report should show score and ball number. Same when launching a ball. Informations like "Shoot the ball" are superfluous. Have a look at the real tables!
    Last edited by Bronsky; 10-15-2013 at 09:15 AM.

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