Suggestions for cabinets

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  • allmodcons
    Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 82

    #16
    One comment on the question if Zen implement backglasses for cabinets. There are some instances where this would work very well, for example in Paranormal where the Haunted House table could appear on the back glass rather like Banzai Run. It's true that a static image would suffice or even a nice illuminated directb2s back glass with random flashing bulbs. If Zen could put in hooks then that would be great although markmon's solution works from the sound of it.

    A lot of us cab owners have put a lot of time into our cabinets, construction, electronics, coding stuff ourselves, creating complex configurations which the average pinball player and less IT savvy user with a desire to own a cab will never achieve easily. Therefore if Zen (and Farsight) can handle at least two screens automatically it will allow more people to get involved in the cabinet side of the hobby.

    Comment

    • allmodcons
      Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 82

      #17
      Having played some more FX2 in the cabinet tonight I have some "really wants"....

      (1) I really want to be able to choose my own custom view of the table. Depending a players height, etc the view of a real table varies, so being able to freely define this per table would be ideal.

      (2) I also hope Zen consider a choice of ball to be taken into any table. A more realistic chrome ball as seen in tables like Blade when the light go down would be perfect.

      (3) An Option to turn down the lighting/bloom, etc as I have mentioned before is a must for me. The intense brightness of some tables s quite uncomfortable and hurts my eyes and I don't get this with VP tables with the same TV settings. Plus I don't get this problem on my FX2 tables on my Android device or Xbox 360.

      Comment

      • Roo5676
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2011
        • 160

        #18
        Originally posted by Sir Cheddar
        I'd like to add two things to Roo's detailed and well written list.
        They aren't "Critical" or "Important". I think they go best under "Nice-to-Have"
        • Support for two sound cards
          Many cabs have two sound systems. The first (and main) sound system is located in the Backbox and gets used for ROM sounds.
          This includes speech, music, and sound effects - everything what originally came out of a given pinball machine's speaker system.
          The second sound system is for mechanical sounds and usually located in the cabinet. Mechanical sound include bumpers, slingshots and ball rolling sounds.
          It makes one helluva difference, take my word for it. Especially if you have matching subwoofers to go with it.

        • LED-Wiz support
          LED-Wiz or Arduino boards get often used to control misc. button lamps, force feedback and toys. Here is a list of what is commonly used, obviously we don't need all of them. Contactors, flashers and shaker would be nice

          Button Lights - Commonly used are "Start" and "Launch Ball", sometimes "Extra Ball", less common are RGB flipper and magnasave buttons.
          Contactors - Up to 8 Contactors for mechanical sounds, usually 2 for flippers, 2 for slingshots, 3 for bumpers, and one in the back. A good post describing this with pictures is here.
          Force Feedback - Shaker motor, gear motor, replay knocker.
          Flashers - Usually 5 high powered RGB LEDs and a strobe.
          Rotating Beacons - It seems more and more people putting one of those on their backbox lately.
          Fan - Rarely used. Before you ask, it's for tables like Whirlwind and Twister.

        Bumping this so people see Sir Cheddar's response. His post got flagged for moderation the other day somehow and then just got inserted in the middle just now.

        Comment

        • rooter
          Member
          • Mar 2012
          • 35

          #19
          LED-Wiz and analog plunger support seems to be the most important things left to me. The cabinet community seems to have come up with a hack for just about everything else. As for the LEDWiz, if there was just some sort of API that could let us listen to events, the cabinet community could do the rest.

          Real DMD support would be awesome. I know the PinDMD board listens to OpenGL debugging info to work with Future Pinball, I bet a similar thing could be achieved with FX2.

          Comment

          • markmon
            Member
            • Jan 2013
            • 78

            #20
            Originally posted by rooter
            LED-Wiz and analog plunger support seems to be the most important things left to me. The cabinet community seems to have come up with a hack for just about everything else. As for the LEDWiz, if there was just some sort of API that could let us listen to events, the cabinet community could do the rest.

            Real DMD support would be awesome. I know the PinDMD board listens to OpenGL debugging info to work with Future Pinball, I bet a similar thing could be achieved with FX2.
            What's the benefit of the led wiz here? Do pinball fx tables even have flashers? I think the led wiz is silly anyway. Even on visual pinball, the flashers aren't going to be in any of the right places.

            As for the analog plunger, why can't this be done with the Xbox pad emulator just like I used it for nudging? Seems a lot of people are asking Zen to do things that we can already do. Would much rather they focused on bringing out more tables than spending hours and hours of engineering time into something's like led wiz or supporting real Dmd which only very few cabinet owners even have. I think there's a lot of value getting the Dmd moved to another monitor, though.

            Comment

            • xaphian
              Junior Member
              • May 2013
              • 16

              #21
              agreed!

              Originally posted by markmon
              What's the benefit of the led wiz here? Do pinball fx tables even have flashers? I think the led wiz is silly anyway. Even on visual pinball, the flashers aren't going to be in any of the right places.

              As for the analog plunger, why can't this be done with the Xbox pad emulator just like I used it for nudging? Seems a lot of people are asking Zen to do things that we can already do. Would much rather they focused on bringing out more tables than spending hours and hours of engineering time into something's like led wiz or supporting real Dmd which only very few cabinet owners even have. I think there's a lot of value getting the Dmd moved to another monitor, though.
              Now before I say anything, I am not a cabinet owner. That being said, I've been following the community a little, and I have to agree with markmon here. Yes, some of these features would be great, and make it a little easier on cabinet owners and future builders, but as a company, you have to think of your entire market. I think their time would be better spent elsewhere.

              Again, all of the above features would be amazing! I think suggesting them is a great thing, just as long as people keep it civilized. I hate seeing people post saying that they wont buy a game, or hate it because it doesn't have certain minor features. ok, I'm done. Happy pinball everyone!!

              Comment

              • Roo5676
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2011
                • 160

                #22
                Originally posted by xaphian
                Now before I say anything, I am not a cabinet owner. That being said, I've been following the community a little, and I have to agree with markmon here. Yes, some of these features would be great, and make it a little easier on cabinet owners and future builders, but as a company, you have to think of your entire market. I think their time would be better spent elsewhere.

                Again, all of the above features would be amazing! I think suggesting them is a great thing, just as long as people keep it civilized. I hate seeing people post saying that they wont buy a game, or hate it because it doesn't have certain minor features. ok, I'm done. Happy pinball everyone!!
                I certainly understand time constraints and thinking about all the users, not just a minority. That's why I organized my suggestions by priority. My guess is that some of the things would not be a lot of work (disabling roaming and plunger cameras is a good example). I'm sure they have smart business people who will balance what they would like to do with what they can afford to do.

                My philosophy is that if we don't at least make suggestions, they might not know what we want.

                That said, there is an opportunity for the cabinet setup to be a showcase/marketing opportunity that generates extra buzz. Forza Motorsport has been shown off on triple-screen racing rigs with steering wheels at conventions and in videos, even though most people don't play that way at home.

                Comment

                • gamester
                  Junior Member
                  • Feb 2013
                  • 19

                  #23
                  Originally posted by markmon
                  What's the benefit of the led wiz here? Do pinball fx tables even have flashers? I think the led wiz is silly anyway. Even on visual pinball, the flashers aren't going to be in any of the right places.

                  As for the analog plunger, why can't this be done with the Xbox pad emulator just like I used it for nudging? Seems a lot of people are asking Zen to do things that we can already do. Would much rather they focused on bringing out more tables than spending hours and hours of engineering time into something's like led wiz or supporting real Dmd which only very few cabinet owners even have. I think there's a lot of value getting the Dmd moved to another monitor, though.

                  I'm guessing you've never owned or played a cabinet that has LEDWiz support. There's nothing silly about flashers (and strobes), which I might add from first hand experience are awesome, despite the fact that they aren't physically located on the table. You can't really emulate flashing lights properly on a TV screen/monitor. There is no substitute for the real thing. Having them adds an extra level of sensory feedback to the gameplay.

                  But LEDWiz support goes beyond just flashing lights. Force feedback would be an even bigger advantage of the LEDWiz support. Again, if you haven't played a full featured vpin with force feedback (I'm guessing you haven't based on the fact that you didn't even bring up force feedback when making your point), you won't be able to truly relate to how much it enhances the game play experience.

                  Also, I'm not sure I'd say 'very few' cabinet owners have a real DMD. Russ has sold hundreds of his PinDMD boards already. They have been selling so fast he hasn't been able to keep up with the demand thus far. He is already working with Zen on support, and I doubt it will be very difficult to implement. I think it will be an awesome addition.

                  I realize that the folks that don't have cabinets are probably the ones that will be quick to shoot down adding such features. It's natural I suppose. There's nothing in it for them. But as a cabinet owner, I welcome such support, and if they add it, I will be more than willing to reciprocate by using my cabinet to showcase their game. Win-win.

                  I recognize that cabinets, in the scheme of things, would still be considered a niche market. But Zen are already positioned for the masses. The niche markets are what remains, and oh, by the way, they are probably among the most passionate of all pin-heads and most apt to spread the word.

                  Pinball itself has become a niche and a dying one at that, for many years. Zen needs to take every angle possible to continue pinball's revitalization. No stone should be left unturned. Their mantra is 'pinball everywhere...' That definitely should include the cabinets that are purpose built for the job.

                  There's already tons of tables out, and Zen have obviously already promised more. Tables are a given. These extra things are what will take the game to another level, open it up to a new user base and drive interest in the game from a new angle. I think their tables running in their full glory with cabinet features would generate a lot of buzz. It's another marketing channel that is currently untapped.

                  Bottom line is, Zen to this point are receptive to adding cabinet support, and by golly I'm thrilled about that, and say more power to them! Sure, some of the features could be accomplished through 'hacks' and 3rd party tools, but we really don't need anymore software kludges do we? We already have too much of that in VP and FP, purely by necessity. I want a piece of pinball software that will 'just work' for a change, and if Zen are willing to provide that, I'm glad to accept it.

                  I certainly hope this 'Suggestions for Cabinets' thread doesn't veer too far off course and turn into an argument about why cabinet features should or should not be implemented. Zen has openly asked for our input on what cabinet features we'd like to see, and we're going to give it. It's up to them to sort through it and decide how much time they want to spend on implementation.
                  Last edited by gamester; 05-20-2013, 09:02 PM.

                  Comment

                  • allmodcons
                    Member
                    • Dec 2012
                    • 82

                    #24
                    Well said gamester. These 'niche' add-ons can add value in so many different ways. Publicity it draws, the showcasing capabilities at gaming shows. People will buy the product knowing it can run in a cabinet with the thoughts 'hey, maybe I can make one one day'.

                    I built my cabinet 2.5 years ago having not played a real pin for years, and I too at that time thought there was no point adding flipper feedback nor flashers to a virtual cab. However after getting to play some real pins some time after the build whilst on holiday I was reminded what the flipper solenoid thump adds to the experience, the wonderful ultra bright orange of the DMD, and the effect of the flashers.

                    I promptly added the flipper 'thump' using two Siemens solenoids and a opto-coupler and there is no going back after you add this. I have also since added a Vishay DMD using Russ's board. I still need to add a row of flashers under the DMD and from what I have seen these really make a virtual cabinet complete.

                    Markmon - I think I have read you have 2 or 3 cabs. All I can say is take one of them one step further and add these features to see what you are missing.

                    Comment

                    • Snjspiteri
                      Junior Member
                      • May 2013
                      • 2

                      #25
                      Cabinet upgrades in one place!! Please?

                      It would be a gift from god or Zen in this case if all these cabinet mods where available through pinball fx2 software. I have a 3 screeb pinball cab with ledwiz and all the flashers and force feedback added and I know it has taking me months and months of searching the web and reading forums to get to know the right or best way to do these things.

                      However even after all this research things don't work exactly how they should and not all tables are supported.

                      I read here now that mark is saying he has created a way to do some of these upgrades already but he hasn't mentioned exactly how to do these things. So now I will spend days searching the known forums on a guide to get these done just like many others.
                      Now I have a bachelor in computing and still a lot of this stuff is way over my head and for everyday pinball enthusiast that just wants to plug and play this is just not an option.

                      I have many friends that have 3 screen pinball cabs that have experienced what my table has to offer with all the ledwiz force feedback and lighting mods and would really love to make this happen on there machines but would not even attempt to try due to the complexity and not having the time to make it happen.

                      So please people let Zen be the first to had all these requests in there software so everyone out there can be able to enjoy there work and pinball with all the mods we are suggesting without having to be a computer wiz or quitting your job so you have the time to make it happen.

                      So please keep suggesting the cabinet support you need and let the great people at Zen make it a possibility for every pinball lover out there.

                      That being said Barbie how far away are we from any cabinet support upgrades?

                      I feel 2nd screen support for the dmd is the most important by far.

                      Comment

                      • markmon
                        Member
                        • Jan 2013
                        • 78

                        #26
                        Yea. Some if these things can be done now. The things that can be done now are:

                        1) integration into hyperpin including on demand rotation to and from portrait upon launch.
                        2) analog controller support for nudging and plunger using x360 pad emulation.
                        3) having backglass update on second monitor when table is selected within pb fx 2 (via program I wrote to do this)
                        4) remap any buttons via autohoykey

                        Things that cannot be done:
                        1) move Dmd to another screen. As far as in concerned with nothing more than this, cabinet support could be considered complete
                        2) play for credits / quarters
                        3) led wiz support
                        4) real Dmd support. I don't find this important. It prevents is from having colors in the Dmd. And it requires all future games use a Dmd. Dmd are being phased out if real pinballs. I see no reason to use real dmds. But that's just my opinion.

                        I will be making a cabinet pack and instructions for how to use my backglass app.

                        Comment

                        • gamester
                          Junior Member
                          • Feb 2013
                          • 19

                          #27
                          Originally posted by markmon
                          1) move Dmd to another screen. As far as in concerned with nothing more than this, cabinet support could be considered complete
                          Obviously you have much lower expectations and a much higher threshold of pain than most. It's great that all of these round about methods exist, but I would not consider any of them particularly user friendly. Sure, many of the folks that have built cabs are used to having to jump through hoops to make stuff work. But part of the point here is to try to make cabinet features more accessible. That's what will grow the market share. This stuff should just work out of the box. I think we should see what Zen are willing to implement, THEN try to fill in the gaps, rather than cobbling a clunky solution together and waving them off claiming we don't need their help...

                          Originally posted by markmon
                          4) real Dmd support. I don't find this important. It prevents is from having colors in the Dmd. And it requires all future games use a Dmd. Dmd are being phased out if real pinballs. I see no reason to use real dmds. But that's just my opinion. .
                          DMDs still seem to be going pretty strong as far as I can tell. Last I checked the latest Stern release includes a DMD. Zen obviously has a number of tables that already use it. I can see plenty of reason for real DMD support, even if it's only for the existing tables. To say that including such support now will 'require' future games to use it is silly. If they decide to ditch the DMD type display and move to some other solution for future tables, big deal, that can just be displayed on the back glass monitor. But that's no reason to ditch real DMD support for all of the existing tables. I don't think there's any harm in it, and I don't think it's going to be hard for them to implement. Heck, a hobbyist managed to get PinDMD support working for Future Pinball, with no source code to work with. I suspect Zen devs can integrate this into their own product with Russ' help without much fuss...
                          Last edited by gamester; 05-21-2013, 04:35 PM.

                          Comment

                          • markmon
                            Member
                            • Jan 2013
                            • 78

                            #28
                            Originally posted by gamester
                            Obviously you have much lower expectations and a much higher threshold of pain than most. It's great that all of these round about methods exist, but I would not consider any of them particularly user friendly. Sure, many of the folks that have built cabs are used to having to jump through hoops to make stuff work. But part of the point here is to try to make cabinet features more accessible. That's what will grow the market share. This stuff should just work out of the box. I think we should see what Zen are willing to implement, THEN try to fill in the gaps, rather than cobbling a clunky solution together and waving them off claiming we don't need their help...
                            Actually from a business perspective, I don't think it makes much sense to do much more. Have you seen all the steps required to get a properly tuned hyperpin set up? These people are use to having cumbersome methods to make things work. It's not all that important that they be handed gracefully via user menus. The users still have to jump through hoops to set up the rest of the virtual pinball platform. And the things I'm suggestions such as mapping of keys or rotating displays aren't even cumbersome to set up. The entire hyperpin platform runs via autohoykey scripts already. Writing in 2-3 extra lines to handle these things is no big deal.

                            As for growing the market share, I don't think any of this is going to sell a significant number of pinball fx installs. First, most people with cabinets will already move to this platform as it stands because even in its current state, its incredibly cool. Second, zen gets maybe $50 for the sale of all the tables per built cabinet. I doubt adding all these features would even add 200 total cabinet builds and zen sales. But even that only brings in an extra $10000. That doesn't pay for engineering resources to go the extra mile. So since from a business perspective, some things will inevidibly be cut, it makes sense (to me) that the things we can already do now should be the first. Finally, unless zen plans to hire new engineers to accomplish all the tasks, the engineers would be the same folks they have now but just being taken off other projects to work on this. That means less tables being ported or such as the labor resources to do these things come from someplace.
                            Last edited by markmon; 05-21-2013, 09:15 PM.

                            Comment

                            • xaphian
                              Junior Member
                              • May 2013
                              • 16

                              #29
                              Originally posted by markmon
                              Actually from a business perspective, I don't think it makes much sense to do much more. Have you seen all the steps required to get a properly tuned hyperpin set up? These people are use to having cumbersome methods to make things work. It's not all that important that they be handed gracefully via user menus. The users still have to jump through hoops to set up the rest of the virtual pinball platform. And the things I'm suggestions such as mapping of keys or rotating displays aren't even cumbersome to set up. The entire hyperpin platform runs via autohoykey scripts already. Writing in 2-3 extra lines to handle these things is no big deal.

                              As for growing the market share, I don't think any of this is going to sell a significant number of pinball fx installs. First, most people with cabinets will already move to this platform as it stands because even in its current state, its incredibly cool. Second, zen gets maybe $50 for the sale of all the tables per built cabinet. I doubt adding all these features would even add 200 total cabinet builds and zen sales. But even that only brings in an extra $10000. That doesn't pay for engineering resources to go the extra mile. So since from a business perspective, some things will inevidibly be cut, it makes sense (to me) that the things we can already do now should be the first. Finally, unless zen plans to hire new engineers to accomplish all the tasks, the engineers would be the same folks they have now but just being taken off other projects to work on this. That means less tables being ported or such as the labor resources to do these things come from someplace.
                              This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier. Thank you for making it clearer . Also, as I said I don't have a table, but I would love to get my hands on your program to make this work with 2 screens. I have 2 screens setup to play this, and that would be fantastic.

                              Comment

                              • rooter
                                Member
                                • Mar 2012
                                • 35

                                #30
                                Gamester, I couldn't have said it better. You rule.

                                Originally posted by markmon
                                Actually from a business perspective, I don't think it makes much sense to do much more.
                                How can you possibly determine the business perspectives of Zen? Maybe they want to make the most incredible cabinet ever devised to take to trade shows to show off their awesome product and we can reap the benefits.

                                Also, you don't seem to know anything about cabs either and just seem to be talking out of your rear. Using the LEDWiz to make the flippers feel like real life flippers and using the shaker motor to physically move the cabinet when it shakes in game would be truly epic. If you don't have any suggestions for cabinets, perhaps you could stay out of the "Suggestions for cabinets" thread. Sorry, I don't really want to be rude to you, but aren't doing anything but a lot of typing in a discussion that you have no interest in.

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