What do you think after playing the new physics tables and coming back to Zen?

[Cloda]

I love it, not much more needs to be said :P

On a (personal) side note: One can finally play "normal" 3 ball rounds of "zen tables" without risking having to sit through hours before finishing a game. This is what I have always dreamed of since my 9 hour session in Secrets of the deep that got me burned out.

Haha... that is exactly how I feel about it. I stopped playing because I literally didn't have the time to play for longer than an hour every couple of days. My longest game was on Paranormal where on-off the game lasted for more than 24 hours of actual playtime! After that, there were many tables were a good score would last for 4 - 6 hours e.g. Sorcerer's Lair and Ms. Splosion Man. Then there were tables where a good game last for about 2 - 3 hours such as Fantastic Four. People tend to forget that the pack of four original Pinball FX2 tables were brilliant and not all that easy as the design mindset was still more on real life table layout. Rome is tough (thinking about it, this table would probably play very well with Deep / classic arcade physics) and playing for longer than an hour is rare. Pasha is beautiful and even my best games (which lasted much longer than a standard game) were maybe 2 hours long. Similar so with Biolab (which has the original and probably still best table guide) and Secrets of the Deep (even though you could carefully and painstakingly score big and play longer on both with multi-ball).

As an aside, something I wished for, for a long time, as I believe it will change the complexity and approach to playing the tables is if the leaderboards and / or tournaments could capture and be calculated on more information. Call it a True-skill leaderboard if you may where basically not just the highest score is top of the leaderboard but rather the highest score conditional on other table goals e.g. wizard modes completed. This would avoid spamming certain modes and would encourage people to play a table to its fullest and take more risk. Perfect examples of tables where this would lead to much more interesting games are just about all the tables I mentioned above (especially Fantastic 4, Pasha, Biolab and Ms. Splosion Man). Anyway, this has been on my daydream list for many years and the suggestions on this in this post I made was conjured up in one of those daydreams during a long trail run. As always, I hope somebody that can do something about it take note

Here is my attempt at an one-liner (adapted from my original post on this) to convey the idea:

True-skill leaderboard: depending on the table it is a combination score calculated from a players high-score ranked by and conditional on the total modes/missions completed and/or the amount of times you have completed the wizard mode.

[steven120566]

May be in the minority here.

The new physics are what they are, and I do like them on the Williams group of real table recreations. But I think Zen had the physics down just great ever since FX2. Their library of tables was excellent before! Their physics was excellent before as well. I do not want to see them abandon their standard for a few people's infatuation with the "new" physics.

People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.

The physics that they programmed into their original 70 some FX 3 tables should not be changed. If they are making real table recreations, or even new original tables, and want to try to improve the physics, that's fine. Just don't change what has been working well for a decade.

[MultiForce]

May be in the minority here.

The new physics are what they are, but I think Zen had the physics down just great ever since FX2. Their library of tables was excellent before! Their physics was excellent before as well. I do not want to see them abandon their standard for a few people's infatuation with the "new" physics.

People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.

The physics that they programmed into their original 70 some FX 3 tables should not be changed. If they are creating real table recreations, and want to try to improve the physics, that's fine. Just don't change what has been working well for a decade

Adding something doesn't mean you have to remove something else.

The physics on the zen tables fits the tables and I think everyone agrees on that.

[ImperiousStout]

People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.

Part of that is no doubt due to the Zen physics still being the default / first option on all those tables. You have to deliberately opt into the arcade / simulation physics, and it's extremely confusing UI design because the 'Classic Single Player' mode means completely different things for Zen & Williams tables. They added some description text but it's still not as obvious and clear as it could and should be with 'Classic Single Player' being an inconsistent variable for the entire game.

Adding something doesn't mean you have to remove something else.

The physics on the zen tables fits the tables and I think everyone agrees on that.

Absolutely correct on both points.

[steven120566]

Part of that is no doubt due to the Zen physics still being the default / first option on all those tables. You have to deliberately opt into the arcade / simulation physics, and it's extremely confusing UI design because the 'Classic Single Player' mode means completely different things for Zen & Williams tables. They added some description text but it's still not as obvious and clear as it could and should be with 'Classic Single Player' being an inconsistent variable for the entire game.




Absolutely correct on both points.

Ditto, Ditto, and Ditto guys. Although I do prefer the zen physics as they had evolved prior to their foray into Williams, at the same time, I like having that option with them. What I think I am seeing is like 3 physics blueprints per table with these new ones. Even though I won't opt for the more difficult ones very often. Heck as long as they want to maintain leaderboard consistency for three versions of the same table, I truly have no worries My concern must have been in thinking they were going to go with the trend as making the curent standard more difficult... but there can be as many levels of leaderboards as they want as long as they keep the average players like me in mind for one of them.

[teamski]

May be in the minority here.

The new physics are what they are, and I do like them on the Williams group of real table recreations. But I think Zen had the physics down just great ever since FX2. Their library of tables was excellent before! Their physics was excellent before as well. I do not want to see them abandon their standard for a few people's infatuation with the "new" physics.

People may claim to not want to go back, but that is not what seems to be playing out in reality. For the Williams tables, the single player modes seem to be gettinh much more play time than the "classic" ones with the supposedly improved physics.

The physics that they programmed into their original 70 some FX 3 tables should not be changed. If they are making real table recreations, or even new original tables, and want to try to improve the physics, that's fine. Just don't change what has been working well for a decade.

Wow. Them is strong words there. As one of those "few" players, the new physics are what for many of us out there, what real pinball is all about. I think that ZEN should be applauded for giving us "infatuated" players a new home and working both sides of the table. Perhaps one day, you too will appreciate what the arcade tables offer.

I personally always had a problem with the FX physics model that pushed me back to PBA. The ball always feels plastic and the shots seem scripted. This is after many years of playing pinball on the computer going all of the way back to Pinball Dreams on the Amiga. I never feel that FX tested my skill but rather my patience. This is why you have tables being played for over 24 hours..... I think there is room for both of us in FX3.

-Ski

[Vincent]

I think everyone agrees on asking Zen to make both modes available for all tables.

[steven120566]

I think there is room for both of us in FX3.

-Ski

Yeah, I agree with you, if this app can offer that variation... and it does appear that it can do that, then that's all for the better. I just was concerned that they may change what has worked well for them for so long. But in retrospect, what you guys are asking for is simply an option to have in the game, not a redesign... I stand corrected

[Vincent]

Yeah, I agree with you, if this app can offer that variation... and it does appear that it can do that, then that's all for the better. I just was concerned that they may change what has worked well for them for so long. But in retrospect, what you guys are asking for is simply an option to have in the game, not a redesign... I stand corrected

Exactly. I created a thread dedicated to this question, where Zen can keep us in touch in the future.

https://forum.zenstudios.com/showthread.php?28384-Arcade-Physics-for-other-tables

[rmaultra]

Finally got to run through the tables tonight. Really thrilled with them. I have hours (and hours) on each of these tables on PBA and I think ZEN pretty much nailed them. The only complaint I have is the poor sound sampling on Medieval Madness. The music and feature sounds are mono (stereo in PBA) and rather muffled. If you compare them to PBA, they quite flat. I hope that Zen will fix that. Otherwise, really, really good. Keep it up ZEN! I found a permanent home here now!

-Ski

p.s. The only other observation I have is that the tables seem a bit flatter than in PBA. I think PBA kept the aspect ratio closer to the orginal and didn't worry about filling the entire screen with the table. I prefer the PBA approach better, but I understand that they probably wanted them to be consistent with the rest of the tables.....

That is the biggest complaint that I have in this bundle is there is not a view to have that has the wider aspect ratio to see and read all the table in. It is like the present multiball mode in FX3.......very tall and narrow and not consistent in view 3 they have in FX3 on XBOX1. And I too, do not like the muffled audio.

[FRAQATTAQ]

I really like them. The physics feel good.

But is there a place were I can bring up weak spots on one of the tabes which is not exactly a bug?

90% of all ball losses in fishtales happen if the ball comes down from the right lane. on one point it makes some kind of annatural move. the result is that many time it comes down right at the middle of the flippers.

this seem to be not realistic. i own the real table and, at least there, nothing like this is happening. really frustrating.

[Vincent]

90% of all ball losses in fishtales happen if the ball comes down from the right lane. on one point it makes some kind of annatural move. the result is that many time it comes down right at the middle of the flippers.
this seem to be not realistic. i own the real table and, at least there, nothing like this is happening. really frustrating.

This is not normal. I was thinking Zen would have made a meticulous comparaison to the real tables.

[RuySan]

Haha... that is exactly how I feel about it. I stopped playing because I literally didn't have the time to play for longer than an hour every couple of days. My longest game was on Paranormal where on-off the game lasted for more than 24 hours of actual playtime! After that, there were many tables were a good score would last for 4 - 6 hours e.g. Sorcerer's Lair and Ms. Splosion Man. Then there were tables where a good game last for about 2 - 3 hours such as Fantastic Four. People tend to forget that the pack of four original Pinball FX2 tables were brilliant and not all that easy as the design mindset was still more on real life table layout. Rome is tough (thinking about it, this table would probably play very well with Deep / classic arcade physics) and playing for longer than an hour is rare. Pasha is beautiful and even my best games (which lasted much longer than a standard game) were maybe 2 hours long. Similar so with Biolab (which has the original and probably still best table guide) and Secrets of the Deep (even though you could carefully and painstakingly score big and play longer on both with multi-ball).

I completely agree with you. This was always my beef with Zen tables. Games would get really long and grindy, and that always pushed me back to PBA.

Bringing new physics to the old tables would not achieve anything, since the tables have grindy goals with long games in mind. I wish zen would make a pack of original designed tables inspired with arcade physics in mind. I would love it.

[Cloda]

I completely agree with you. This was always my beef with Zen tables. Games would get really long and grindy, and that always pushed me back to PBA.

Bringing new physics to the old tables would not achieve anything, since the tables have grindy goals with long games in mind. I wish zen would make a pack of original designed tables inspired with arcade physics in mind. I would love it.

It would be awesome if Zen could create their own originals with classic single player physics but I would say that is something that they should look at much later. For now, bringing a few new Williams tables every now and then and then Zen originals with Zen physics (or at least other IP's - sorry Zen, I'm tired of all the Star Wars / Marvel stuff) in-between will be more than enough (for my budget and general life balance and productivity as well ).

I do feel though that some of the original Zen tables will play really well with arcade single player physics (as I mentioned in my previous response - the FX2 release tables especially Rome and Pasha) as they were designed more with real table physics and layout in mind. It was only later one that tables moved further away from real life dimensions and design.

[Vincent]

I do feel though that some of the original Zen tables will play really well with Zen physics (as I mentioned in my previous response - the FX2 release tables especially Rome and Pasha) as they were designed more with real table physics and layout in mind. It was only later one that tables moved further away from real life dimensions and physics.

Cloda is perfectly right on this. Earth Defense, Excalibur, Rome, Pasha, Secrets of the Deep, Biolab, were all excellent tables which were considerably more arcade-oriented. It would not be senseless at all to implement new physics for them. Even Ironman or Blade would surely be enjoyable with this option.